Turning the key at SNG

Guests

Andrew van Doorn OBE is Chief Executive of HACT, the social housing sector's innovation charity, where he has worked since 2003 and led as Chief Executive since 2017. Throughout a career spanning more than three decades in housing, homelessness, community development and social policy, Andrew has championed innovation, collaboration and social value across the sector. He played a key role in developing the UK Social Value Bank and has worked extensively to help housing organisations better understand and support the communities they serve. In recognition of his contribution to housing, he was awarded an OBE in 2023 for services to housing.

Matt Buckham is the Managing Director of the SNG Community Foundation, leading its mission to invest in communities and improve opportunities for customers across the South of England. An experienced housing and community investment professional, Matt has worked across regeneration, housing management and community investment, championing approaches that put power in the hands of local people and build strong partnerships for lasting impact. He is a passionate advocate for community investment and social value, helping organisations work alongside residents to create thriving, resilient communities.

Host 

Phoebe Newton. Phoebe is both an SNG customer and a member of the Engagement Team, giving her a unique perspective on life in our homes. Having lived in her current home for four and a half years, she understands the challenges, frustrations, and little wins of everyday life as an SNG customer. As producer of Turning the key at SNG, Phoebe ensures each episode is grounded in real customer experiences. Her goal is to create a space for open, honest conversations between customers and colleagues, helping to build a stronger, more connected community.

In our first episode of Turning the key at SNG, we’re starting with the basics - who we are, what we do, and why it matters. Host Phoebe, who’s both an SNG colleague and customer, sits down with Ellie Cutler from our Social Value team to chat about how SNG came to be, what’s changed since our merger, and how our new locality model is bringing us closer to customers.

Together, they explore what makes a home more than just bricks and mortar — it’s about people, community, and connection. If you’ve ever wondered who’s behind SNG and how we’re working to make housing more personal and local, this episode is a great place to start.

Hosts and guests

Host – Phoebe Newton 

Phoebe is both an SNG customer and a member of the Engagement Team, giving her a unique perspective on life in our homes. Having lived in her current home for three and a half years, she understands the challenges, frustrations, and little wins of everyday life as an SNG customer. As producer of Turning the key at SNG, Phoebe ensures each episode is grounded in real customer experiences. Her goal is to create a space for open, honest conversations between customers and colleagues, helping to build a stronger, more connected community.

Guest – Ellie Cutler 

Ellie’s journey with SNG began long before her first day at work; she grew up in an SNG home, where her parents still live today. Starting her career as a temporary administration assistant in our Gas Team, Ellie has now been with the business for nearly seven years - almost all of her adult life. Over that time she’s held a variety of roles across multiple different teams, enabling her to build strong connections and relationships with her colleagues across SNG as well as external stakeholders, suppliers and community organisations. Her experience gives her a unique, well-rounded view of the organisation, that has supported her to grow immensely - both professionally and personally - along the way.  

Now one of SNG's Social Value Specialists, Ellie is passionate about making meaningful, lasting impact through our work and relationships. As the first guest on Turning the Key at SNG, Ellie shares her story, her insights, and her deep understanding of who SNG is - not just as a housing provider, but as a community of dedicated people working together to build thriving communities over generations. That's what its all about for her. And SNG.

In Episode Two, we’re handing the spotlight to Princess Fortes, a social housing customer and valued member of SNG’s Customer Influence Panel (CIP).

Princess shares her powerful journey — from lived experience as a resident, to sitting alongside senior leaders, influencing policy, and helping shape the future of customer voice at SNG. 

Hosted by Phoebe Newton, this episode offers a rare look through a customer’s eyes at:

• What it really feels like to sit at the table with the CEO and Executive Team
• How lived experience drives meaningful change
• Why resident insight became essential after Grenfell
• How customer-led challenge improves services, safety, and accountability

Alongside Princess, Engagement Specialists Tracy and James help bring context to how SNG involves customers — through panels, thematic groups, digital engagement, and community events — but throughout the conversation, Princess’s perspective leads the way. 

This episode is an honest, human reminder that the future of social housing depends on one thing: 
putting customers at the heart of decision-making, not on the sidelines.

Hosts and guests

Host – Phoebe Newton 

Phoebe is both an SNG customer and a member of the Engagement Team, giving her a unique perspective on life in our homes. Having lived in her current home for three and a half years, she understands the challenges, frustrations, and little wins of everyday life as an SNG customer. As producer of Turning the key at SNG, Phoebe ensures each episode is grounded in real customer experiences. Her goal is to create a space for open, honest conversations between customers and colleagues, helping to build a stronger, more connected community.

Guest - Princess Fortes – Customer & CIP Member

Princess is a London based SNG customer and a dedicated member of the Customer Influence Panel (CIP). Driven by her own experiences as a customer, she joined the panel to ensure customer voices are not only heard but acted upon at the highest levels. With a background in social work; including supporting families affected by the Grenfell tragedy, Princess brings insight, empathy and lived experience to every discussion. She plays a vital role in shaping policies, influencing strategic decisions and championing dignity, safety and respect for all customers.

Guest - Tracy Hanks – Engagement Specialist

Tracy has worked in housing for over 11 years, beginning her journey at former Network Homes. She has supported a range of resident groups, including scrutiny, mystery shopping, youth engagement and thematic work. Today, she works across the London and Hertfordshire localities, building trusted relationships with customers and facilitating meaningful conversations within communities. Known for her warmth, honesty and hands-on experience, Tracy is passionate about making sure engagement is never a tick-box exercise, but a genuine partnership with our customers.

Guest - James Taylor – Digital Engagement Specialist

With over 20 years in social housing, James brings a deep sector knowledge and a strong commitment to customer involvement. Covering the Isle of Wight locality and leading engagement for SNG’s older persons schemes, he supports residents both in person and online. James has played a key role in the evolution of customer voice, by introducing Engage – a digital platform which allows customers to feedback at a time and place that suits them. He is dedicated to making engagement more accessible, inclusive and meaningful for all customers.

In this episode of Turning the Key at SNG, guest host Nichola Rogers, one of SNG’s customers, steps in to lead an important conversation about sustainability and the future of our homes. Nichola is joined by Jim Dyer, SNG’s Built Environment Director, and Kathryn Hulkes, Head of Retrofit Delivery, to explore what it really takes to make homes warmer, greener, and fit for the future.

Together, they unpack SNG’s sustainability vision, the challenges and opportunities of retrofit and regeneration, and how these changes impact the people living in our communities. From funding hurdles to practical solutions, this episode connects strategy with lived experience—because creating healthier spaces isn’t just about bricks and mortar, it’s about people.

This is a must-listen for anyone curious about sustainability or preparing for a retrofit in their own home. You’ll learn what to expect, why it matters, and how SNG is working to make the process as smooth and beneficial as possible. Plus, we share a few simple tips and tricks to help keep your home warm this winter.

Whether you’re a customer, colleague, or simply interested in how housing providers are tackling climate goals, this conversation offers insight into how we can futureproof homes and improve lives.

Tune in and join us as we turn the key on sustainability.

Hosts and guests

Nichola Rogers – Customer Influence Panel Member & Guest Host

Nichola joined SNG’s Customer Influence Panel (CIP) at its launch in early 2025 and has been a passionate advocate for customer voice ever since. With a strong focus on sustainability, Nichola is committed to shaping services that truly work for customers and communities. Her goal is to ensure that decisions about homes and the environment reflect real lived experiences, helping create spaces that are greener, healthier, and future-proof.

Nichola brings a customer perspective to conversations that matter—like retrofit and regeneration—making sure that the voices of residents are heard and acted upon.

Jim Dyer – Director of the Built Environment

Jim brings over 30 years of experience in architecture, construction, development, and national housebuilding to his role at SNG. After moving into social housing five years ago, Jim now leads SNG’s Built Environment team, with a broad remit across both new and existing homes and places.

His work focuses on navigating a complex and challenging future for housing, ensuring that homes and communities are designed and maintained to meet modern standards and sustainability goals.

The term “Built Environment” encompasses all human-made surroundings that provide the setting for human activity. Buildings, infrastructure, materials, energy, transport, landscape, nature, places, and communities. Jim’s vision is to create spaces that are not only functional and safe but also greener, healthier, and future-proof for generations to come.

Kathryn Hulkes – Head of Retrofit Delivery

Kathryn leads the team responsible for turning SNG’s retrofit strategy into reality, delivering projects that make homes more energy-efficient and comfortable for customers. With a career rooted in construction and extensive experience in social housing, Kathryn has spent much of her professional life delivering major works programmes in central London before taking on her current role at SNG.

She works closely with internal teams and external partners to ensure retrofit programmes run smoothly and deliver real benefits. Improved comfort, better energy efficiency, and enhanced day-to-day living. Kathryn is genuinely passionate about creating homes that support customer wellbeing while improving quality and sustainability for the future.

In this episode of Turning the key at SNG, guest host Nichola Rogers, one of SNG’s customers, explores what sustainability really means for our residents and the planet. Nichola is joined by Dan from Environmental Health and Safety and Pete, one of our Electrical Technicians, for a conversation that busts myths, shares practical insights, and shines a light on the real-world challenges and opportunities in sustainable housing.

Dan breaks down why sustainability is often misunderstood in the media and emphasises SNG’s role in reducing environmental harm while meeting our legal responsibilities. 

Pete shares his on-the-ground experiences supporting customers every day. He talks about why education is the most important ‘upgrade' we can make in homes, the energy issues he sees most often, and how simple changes can prevent costly mistakes.

Tune in and discover how small actions, by colleagues and customers, can make a massive difference.

Hosts and guests

Nichola Rogers – Customer Influence Panel Member & Guest Host

Nichola joined SNG’s Customer Influence Panel (CIP) at its launch in early 2025 and has been a passionate advocate for customer voice ever since. With a strong focus on sustainability, Nichola is committed to shaping services that truly work for customers and communities. Her goal is to ensure that decisions about homes and the environment reflect real lived experiences, helping create spaces that are greener, healthier, and future-proof.

Nichola brings a customer perspective to conversations that matter—like retrofit and regeneration—making sure that the voices of residents are heard and acted upon.

Dan Moore

Dan Moore is part of SNG’s Environmental Health and Safety team, specialising in environmental management and sustainability.

His work focuses on recognising and reducing the environmental impacts of SNG’s operations — from protecting wildlife such as nesting birds and bats, to ensuring the organisation meets its legal responsibilities and industry best practice.

Dan oversees how SNG measures and reports its environmental footprint, including carbon reporting and ESG data, and uses this insight to drive improvement across the business. Passionate about cutting through misconceptions around sustainability, he believes in practical stewardship: not taking more than we need, and making conscious choices that protect the planet and the people who live on it.

He’s also an active member of SNG’s Green Group, helping colleagues embed sustainable thinking into projects, workplaces, and everyday decisions.

Pete Bladner

Pete Bladner is an Electrical Technician at SNG, working directly in customers’ homes every day to support repairs, electrical safety, and the transition to low‑carbon technologies. With firsthand experience of how residents use heating and electrical systems, Pete is passionate about making energy efficiency understandable and accessible for everyone.

He believes education is the most important “upgrade” a home can have. Whether that’s clear handovers, simple tutorials, or practical guidance that helps residents use their systems safely, efficiently, and affordably. Pete has seen the real impact of poor thermal efficiency and rising energy costs on customers, and this drives his commitment to better support, better systems, and greener homes.

Alongside his technical role, Pete is the Chair of the Green Group, supporting initiatives that reduce workplace waste, encourage greener habits, and connect colleagues with sustainability volunteering opportunities.

In this penultimate episode, host Phoebe Newton shines a light on one of SNG’s most impactful supported living schemes: The Foyer in Ryde, Isle of Wight. A place which offers safe accommodation, stability and opportunities for young people who face homelessness.

Phoebe is joined by Luis Montague, a resident of the Foyer, and Nina Kennerdale, one of it’s Team Leaders. Together, they break down how the Foyer works, the challenges young people face today and why this kind of support can be truly life changing.

Luis opens up about his journey to the Foyer while Nina offers a frontline perspective to the services they offer on the island. 

This episode cuts through misconceptions and celebrates the resilience and community at the heart of the Foyer.

Hosts and guests

Luis Montague

Luis Montague is a 21-year-old resident of the Ryde Foyer, currently in his second stay at the service. Known for his openness, humour and passion for the community, Luis plays a key role within the Foyer as the Resident President – a position that sees him leading resident meetings, gathering feedback and working with staff to champion improvements across the service.

Outside of the Foyer, Luis is an avid fisherman and is often found by the water teaching other residents the joys and calm that the hobby brings (when the weather allows!)

His journey is one of resilience, growth and giving back. He brings that lived experience to the heart of this episode.

Nina Kennerdale

Nina Kennerdale is a Team Leader at the Ryde Youth Foyer and has been part of the service for an extraordinary 23 years. Her career in supporting young people spans more than three decades, beginning in a residential children’s home before moving to the Foyer.

Nina first learned about the Foyer model through meeting someone who told her about a Foyer in Manchester. When she mentioned she lived on the Isle of Wight, he told her there was a new Foyer in Ryde, open for just 18 months at the time. Soon after, a job became available. She applied, joined the team and has never looked back since.

Known for her compassion and unwavering commitment, Nina brings a wealth of experience and trauma-informed approach to her work. She has supported hundreds of young people through moments of crisis, change and growth, and remains as passionate about the service today as when she first walked through those doors.

For the final episode of Turning the key at SNG, host and SNG customer, Phoebe Newton, sits down with Mark Washer, Chief Executive of SNG, for the most open conversation of the series. 

In this episode, Phoebe brings customer feelings directly to Mark, inviting a transparent discussion about repairs, long-term investment and the everyday realities customers face.

This isn’t about highlighting problems, it’s about acknowledging them, explaining what’s being done and giving customers a clearer view of how SNG is working to improve their experience.

As series 1 comes to a close, this episode offers a meaningful look behind the scenes, showing how customer voice is shaping the organisation’s priorities now and for the future.

Hosts and guests

Guest - Mark Washer

Mark Washer has been the Chief Executive of SNG since 2018, bringing decades of leadership experience from across the housing sector.

Mark has led on significant organisational transformation and strategic growth. He previously held senior roles including Chief Financial Officer at Clarion Housing Group and has also served as Vice Chair of the National Housing Federation (NHF), contributing to national conversations on policy, investment and sector resilience.

A strong believer in the role of innovation in delivering better services, Mark has consistently championed greater investment in technology within social housing, highlighting the need for modern digital tools, improved systems and data-driven approaches to repairs and asset management. He has spoken openly about the housing sector’s historic under-investment in tech and the importance of embracing new capability to improve customer experience.

Today, Mark leads SNG’s mission to provide safe, affordable and high-quality homes, with a clear focus on transparency, customer voice and long-term investment in homes and communities.

Host – Phoebe Newton 

Phoebe is both an SNG customer and a member of the Engagement Team, giving her a unique perspective on life in our homes. Having lived in her current home for three and a half years, she understands the challenges, frustrations, and little wins of everyday life as an SNG customer. As producer of Turning the key at SNG, Phoebe ensures each episode is grounded in real customer experiences. Her goal is to create a space for open, honest conversations between customers and colleagues, helping to build a stronger, more connected community.

Hello, and welcome to Turning the Key at SNG. This podcast is our space to share updates, explain what's happening at SNG, and most importantly, put residents and staff in the same room. Each episode, we'll talk about hot topics, answer questions, and have an open conversation about what matters most to our residents.

So welcome to the very first episode of our podcast. Today, we're asking a simple but important question, who is SNG? We'll take a look at where we've come from, explore our geography, and look ahead to the future.

I should probably introduce myself. I'm Phoebe. I work at SNG, but I'm also a customer.

So I know firsthand what it's like to live in one of our homes. I've lived in my home for the last three and a half years, and I understand the challenges, frustrations, and the little wins that come with everyday life as a customer. And that experience shapes how I approach my work each day.

I'm the producer of this podcast, which means I'll mostly be working behind the scenes to bring each episode together. You might hear from me from time to time, but I'm here to help make sure the conversations are grounded in the experiences of people living in our homes. This podcast won't fix everything, but it is a step towards being more open, more honest, and more accountable.

We know we won't always get it right, but we will keep trying. And we'll make sure that your voice is part of that conversation. So we've turned the key and we've opened the door.

Now it's time to step inside and get started with our very first episode. So today we are asking a very simple but important question, who is SNG? And to help me answer that question, I am joined here by Ellie Cutler, who is one of our social value specialists.

Hello, Ellie.

Hi, Phoebe. Thanks for having me here.

Oh, you're more than welcome. How are you feeling?

I'm feeling good. Thank you. Excited.

Yeah, me too. This is our first episode.

Yeah.

Now, I think it's important to explain how we first met, because we're not typical colleagues, really, are we?

No, I wouldn't say so.

No. So to go way back, we first met when we were working in our local supermarket.

That was fun. It wasn't it?

So I was on the tills, and you were, were you stacking shelves?

Yes.

Yeah.

I did a bit of everything before I moved around, but I like stacking the shelves.

Yeah. And I like the tills because I could talk to people.

Yeah.

Look where we are now. That makes sense, doesn't it? So we were working together in our local supermarket.

And then fast forward to when I was living in my first flat, and I'd been there a couple of months, and all of a sudden, I could hear the Lettings agent trying to get into the flat opposite us, and it was empty at the time. And I had nothing better to do with my time, clearly. So I decided to camp out by my front door with the ruler, trying to open up my letterbox, and try and have a peek to see who's my new neighbour.

I want to see who this is.

It's so noisy.

Yeah, literally. Yeah, I fully embrace that. And I opened up the letterbox with my ruler, and I see the back of Ellie.

And I'm like, oh my gosh. My new neighbour is Ellie. Well, this is going to be fun.

This is going to be really good. But we both moved on from our jobs at that point. And I was looking for a change in career, and you'd recently got a new job.

Yeah, yes.

So I'd recently got a new job as a temp in the gas team at SNG. So my dad works for SNG, and so I was unemployed for like maybe three months or something. So I was like looking for a job.

My dad works there. I thought, oh, I know it's temporary. So, you know, but I thought I'd give it a go.

And yeah, it was really good. If I'm honest, I really felt like a child at that point. Like I didn't feel ready to like speak on the phone to a customer.

So obviously I was on the gas team, and the first time I answered the phone, so we had inbound calls. I literally had a woman like shouting at me straight away because she didn't have heating and hot water. And I did, obviously, I understand that that's her priority at the time.

But I felt so like unprepared and like I didn't know what to do. And I literally just cried because this woman was shouting at me, and I didn't know what to do. But obviously I was really supported by the team, and they helped me resolve the call.

But it was definitely a bit of a wake up call for me, I would say.

You're in the real world now. You're not stacking shelves.

No, not stacking shelves. No, definitely not. It was definitely the start of my professional journey, I'd say, because before, I know I had employment in that supermarket as such, but it was like being at school.

Honestly, it was like a drama and stuff.

Well, I was looking for a change in career, and you just started with Sovereign Network Group. And I came over and I was chatting to you, and I was like, I don't know what I want to do. I don't know which direction I want to go in.

And you said, oh, well, there's a job coming up in our local office. Let's have a look.

Yeah.

And it just happened to be the perfect job for me. And I was like, I'm going for this.

I know. When I first read the advert, I knew we were like friends anyway, but when I first read the advert, I was like, this is Phoebe, like down to a T, honestly. So yeah, I'm so pleased that you obviously secured the job.

I'm still in the role now. I mean, six years later, I must be doing all right.

It must be.

It must be. We're here. So that's good.

We're going to talk about fluffy jobs.

Fluffy jobs. All right.

Yeah. So I've been told before that I'm in a fluffy job.

Yes.

People listening might not really know what we're talking about, but to give it a brief explanation, you've got lots of roles in the business that are the absolute core to a functioning landlord. And then towards the outside of that, you've got the inverted commas, fluffy jobs, which are not fluffy. I will just point out.

But they're the ones that kind of, they seem like nice to haves, but the reality is they're not nice to haves at all. Really, are they?

No.

So have you been told you're in a fluffy job?

Oh, definitely. Yeah. I think especially because I hate it when someone asks me, what do you do?

Like, you know, it's like such a normal question. And I find that sometimes it takes so long to explain my job role, that at the end of it, they're like, what even is that job? Is that a real job?

What do you do every day sort of thing? So I've definitely heard that. And I think because I've worked in different roles in the business and things like that, the comparison between when I worked in the gas team, for example, the gas team, rightly the ethos is that the home is the heating and the hot water.

That's the priority of the team. And obviously in the winter, if a home doesn't have heating or hot water, that's an emergency. And, you know, we need to get out within 24 hours and deal with that.

But I love that through securing my role as Project Officer for the I Will Fund, now a Social Value Specialist, that it's definitely, we're proving that we are more than just bricks. We're more than just a home and heating and hot water and the fundamental needs that a home is a thriving community and that we want people to feel belonging and feel from part of the community.

OK, so we're going to rewind to a couple of weeks ago, when we were first talking about this first episode of this podcast and we were discussing topics and what is the best opening episode, basically. So we met with our podcast team and we kind of we went through plenty of options. And to be honest, there's plenty of episodes we could talk about for days.

But none of them were quite landing right. So I went home that day and I was speaking to my partner, who is obviously also a Sovereign Network Group resident. And he basically said this.

I've lived in a sovereign property for a number of years and I live with somebody that works for sovereign. But my knowledge of sovereign is is minimal. I still don't have a clue who sovereign are or what sovereign do.

But I do know how much money I've got to send them every month.

He was right. Realistically, how much do you know about your landlord? He lives with me

I mean, please ignore how much he pays attention. And it doesn't seem to matter what I talk about. He just smiles and nods.

All he really knows at the end of the day is the amount of rent that he needs to pay.

I think that's pretty normal, though. I think the general consensus is that's what people care most about, isn't it? And they know about.

Exactly. And I think when we're in the business and we are surrounded by it, whether you are a resident that also works for SNG or you are just a colleague, I think you get wrapped up in that and you get wrapped up into the acronyms as well. And just to say, if we get caught out by the acronym trap and we say something and you have no idea what this means as a listener, please let us know in the comments and pull us up on it and we will do our best to fix it, because I'm telling you now, it's quite ingrained.

Yeah. And there's so many different acronyms and some of them are so similar as well. Yes.

But you're right, when you do it every day, you do kind of just, you know, it becomes normal. It becomes normal. Yeah.

So I do think it's important to, like you say, take the time to explain them. And yeah, if you don't know what we're talking about, please do let us know.

We'll do our best. We'll try. If nothing else, we will try.

So yeah, we with this episode, we're going to strip it back to the basics and we're going to talk about where we've been, where we're going, what we're about basically.

And I think that's what people will find most beneficial, like who are SNG.

So let's jump in to some stats, shall we? So we serve over 200,000 customers and we manage over 85,000 homes across London, Hertfordshire, the South and the Southwest. We're big.

Yeah, but we're pretty big, yeah. We cover a large area.

We are one of the biggest in the country, one of the biggest housing associations in the country. We're also a non-for-profit. So all of the money that we earn is then reinvested back into our homes.

Definitely. Yeah, it should be. So we are a non-for-profit.

Everything we earn is reinvested back into our homes. And in the last financial year alone, so that's 2024 to 2025, we finished 1,590 new homes, which is fantastic. Our employment and skills team, they helped 382 people get jobs.

That's mad.

Yeah. Really important. So it's not just about the home.

It's about finding them employment, which is really important.

And making sure that they can sustain their home. They need help. Not everyone obviously needs help with that, but we offer it.

We offer it. Yeah. And I think it's about offering lots of different things because, as you say, everyone's in different positions and things like that.

So as well as that, so as well as supporting our customers directly, we've also supported 424 community organizations for our Community Foundation. And through that, over 30,000 people took part in community activities that we supported. That's crazy.

I know, 30,000. Yeah. In comparison, so we finished those just over 1,500 homes, which is great.

But we've also helped over 30,000 people take part in community activities. And providing that thriving community that it's not just about the home anymore. It's not about the heating and the hot water and the bricks and the mortar.

It's about the community and that they feel belonging and that they feel safe and things like that. And then finally, at SNG, we use the Housing Association's Charitable Trust, or HACT, we call it.

Acronym.

Yeah, acronym, sorry. But yeah, we call it HACT, and it's a well-being valuation to measure our social impact.

That is so worthy.

It is so worthy, but don't worry, I'm going to break it down. I do think this is really important to share because I do want everyone to know this. So in the last financial year alone, our efforts and activities generate over £140 million in social value, which I know, again, it is quite worthy and you're like, what is social value?

So HACT, they are a charity in the social housing sector, so they're completely separate from SNG, and they focus on innovation in housing, and it's about enhancing people's lives. And then back in 2014, so we're going back a little bit, they created something called the UK Social Value Bank, and this is a way to measure how much of a difference a particular activity makes in someone's life. So at SNG, this is our go-to tool for tracking the impact that we're actually making, sort of outside of those numbers of the, I know we have engaged those 30,000 people, but also we collect lots of other data, like if we make them feel more confident, and if they feel more belonging, and if they feel able to ask for advice.

So it's not just about counting how many people get involved in something, we're digging deeper into the real effects.

And the impact.

The impact of the projects and the programs that we are delivering. And we're also focusing on encouraging our partners to give back. So whether that's through donations to local community groups, by offering money or resources or materials that can make a real difference.

So it's all about measuring our impact and providing wraparound support. And it goes back to the fact that we aren't just bricks and mortar. It's not about the heat in the hot water and the bricks and that anymore.

It's about building thriving communities together.

Let's go backwards a little bit. So we are one of the biggest housing associations in England, but we obviously didn't start that way. So over the decades, housing associations have merged to become what we know as SNG today.

SNG officially formed in October 2023. Yes. And this was through the merger of Sovereign Housing Association and Network Homes.

Yes.

So do you know what the benefits are of the latest merger?

Yeah, I'd say there's quite a few benefits, but sort of in short, it's definitely strengthened our capacity to build new homes. So our corporate plan is to build 25,000 homes over the next 10 years, which works out as 18% more homes than we would have built if we hadn't gone through with this merger.

So essentially, 18% of that is an add-on from being able to merge?

Yes, as a direct result of the merger.

Wow. Fair. So we should point out why it's important to build new homes.

So 1.2 million people are currently on the waiting list.

Yeah, which is crazy.

England alone.

So many people.

Yeah. And building more social homes is the most effective long-term solution to homelessness, reducing homelessness as well. Also, this point, which I find quite interesting, is that a secure home helps children do better in school, it can improve health outcomes and it can reduce stress levels, which it seems obvious, doesn't it?

Like when you read it out loud, but I think that does get forgotten about sometimes. And actually just having a warm house and the roof over your head without the stress of that, you know, so you can actually focus on everything else that you've got going on in your life is very important. So every new home that is built supports jobs in construction as well.

So we're not even just thinking inwards, like outwards. We are also this helps the economy as well and the wider supply chain. And then also younger generations getting to stay close to their support networks.

Like if my if my child wants to grow up and stay local, yes, please do. If he wants to grow up and stay local, he should be able to do so, like as as everyone within our homes. And we would like to do that if we can.

I agree. And it's about providing those opportunities to do so. But I also think there is something there about going the other way.

I think it's about a balance. So it's about welcoming new people and new cultures and new challenges. And like through the merger that we that we just had with Network Homes and former Sovereign Housing Association, so I worked for former Sovereign.

And so I, for the first time, was able to work in London and Hertfordshire. And the people from those areas are facing much different barriers from where I'm from in Dorset and from the Isle of Wight and like Devon, like the places I'm used to visiting. But I'm really enjoying working with those organizations.

And especially where I know that we come from the same town, a very small town. And it's really interesting to have expanded and see different.

I think it's good. It's good to be exposed to different cultures that you're not typically exposed to, like how else to learn?

Yeah, I agree. But that's why I think it's great that we've expanded out and we've brought in new colleagues from different areas and with different expertise and specialisms, I think. Yeah, definitely, for sure.

I think it's fair to say as well, like we say we grew up in a small town in Dorset and SNG, it has always been a big provider for jobs. Typically, you can kind of go around your local pub and you'll probably find someone that works for SNG.

Yeah, I'd say where we're from. Yeah, and it's always been that way.

Yeah, because you said your dad works for SNG as well.

Yes, my dad's actually worked for SNG for years, like as long as I remember now really, and I grew up in an SNG home. Same, yeah. And so, yeah, I've known who they are for quite a long time, I'd say.

But I will say that before I started this role, I didn't quite realize how much support offer was on offer to customers. So I do think that's why I'm so glad that we're doing something like this, so that we can share the exciting opportunities that we do have and the offers that we've got available.

Also, how many people have asked if you work for Signpost?

Oh, so many people. Or Spectrum. Or Spectrum, yeah.

Or still Sovereign.

I know. Yeah, I always do try and correct them, but people just, they just don't know, do they?

No, they don't if they don't know. So we try our best to keep up with the latest merch.

Yeah, just like everyone else, I suppose.

Yeah, bearing in mind, I think it was, Signpost was founded in 89, I think it was. And Signpost turned into Spectrum in 2007, and people are still referring to the old names. There's only so much that we can do.

And we're talking about the mergers that were kind of happening in Dorset, let alone what was happening in all of our other areas. So moving on to our locality model, what is SNG's locality model and why does it matter? So we recognize that over time, and especially after COVID, that we had become a bit distant and a bit faceless as a housing association.

And we could see that we weren't engaging in the way that we would like to. The old structure that we had, it made it hard to deliver up a joined up service, and different teams handled different things. So, you know, there was no single point of contact either.

So customers often got passed around, or they didn't know what help they needed, or they might be getting different answers that kind of contradicted.

Yeah. So this is where our localities model comes in. So SNG has 14 localities.

Now, a locality is a word that we use to describe a geographical area. So it just means an area, basically. But, you know, fancy word, got to have one.

So each locality or area has a dedicated team that takes responsibility for that locality in its entirety or that area. So this is from housing and property to communities, engagement teams. And so every team across SNG will focus on a specific locality.

So our locality areas range from Cornwall to Oxford, around London, down to Brighton. Yeah, at the moment. Yeah, which is crazy.

And obviously, where we're from in Dorset, so lots of different areas. And Hertfordshire. But so the locality model is like, so imagine that we've got many housing associations across our regions.

Oh, I like that.

Yeah, I like that too. I love this way to explain it. So it's like, although SNG is your housing association, the locality team that focuses just on your area knows your area inside and out, the barriers that you're specifically facing and the support offer in your area specifically.

So it brings the services closer to our customers and it helps to build those relationships and listen and respond to local needs rather than the needs of the nation as a whole. Because it might be completely different in London to on the Isle of Wight, for example.

I mean, let's be honest, it definitely is.

Oh yeah, of course, of course.

And then I suppose then it just means that services are closer to customers, they're more tailored to customers as well. It just makes sense.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

I think one thing that I found really interesting when I was chatting to our localities director was how they decided to put teams across the 14 localities and, spoiler alert, it wasn't a case of, yeah, every officer gets a thousand homes and good luck. It was none of that, you know, which perhaps was how it was done before.

That is the way that it used to be though, right? Yeah.

So like, you know, the reality is when they started with this change, you know, there was no blank check. There was no extra staff. There were, you know, we didn't have an endless pot of resources to be able to make this change.

So they decided to take a different approach within the teams and they decided to look at demand data. You ever heard that?

No, demand data.

No, yeah. So instead of it being even distribution, you know, because just because it's the same doesn't make it fair. So they took a look at how much work was actually coming in from each area.

You know, some places have more homes, more issues, more fly tipping, more everything. And they needed more boots on the ground, basically.

It does make sense. So it's not just about the numbers. It's about how much work each area generates and the barriers they're facing.

Exactly. So, you know, one officer might have fewer homes, but if those homes need a lot of support, that's a full time job in itself. But being smart with resources and making sure that staff weren't overwhelmed is important.

So it's kind of like building a team that's based on the actual needs, not just like the spreadsheets and like the original aim.

Yeah, human way of working, essentially. And hopefully it means that more customers get a better service and teams are actually sized to match the reality of what's needed on the ground.

Looking for a simple, flexible way to have your voice heard? Meet Engage, SNG's digital engagement platform that brings you into the conversation. Whether you're sharing feedback, exploring opportunities, or looking for information to join one of our resident panels, Engage is your space to connect and contribute.

So if you're ready to make a difference and help shape the future of your community, head to engage.sng.org.uk and tell us what you think. Engage, your voice, your space, your say.

Okay, so now we're going to take a look to the future of social housing. Now, the reality of this is this is dependent on the government. And some people might not be too aware of that, you know, like from funding to policy being shaped out, that sort of thing.

So council housing and housing associations are both types of social housing. But they're not the same.

Yeah, no.

So like I talked to my dad about work every once in a while.

Once in a while.

Every once in a while I talked to my dad about what's going on with work. And he always seems to call me a civil servant. And I'm like, I'm really not, dad.

I can't take that. I'm genuinely not. Maybe if you listen to the, hi dad, if you're listening to the podcast, maybe you'll realize I'm not a civil servant.

Bless him. But do you know the key differences between the types of housing?

Yeah, so the council housing is owned and managed by the local authorities. But the housing associations, as we said earlier, are independent and non-for-profit organizations that they often work in partnership with the government, but they operate separately. But I do think there is confusion there about people thinking that if you're from a housing association home, that you're from a council home, or there's a stigma about that.

And yeah, absolutely there's...

Stigma, we'll get into one another day. That's a whole podcast in itself.

Yeah, 100%.

So council housing and housing associations both aim to provide affordable homes. But housing associations may also be able to offer options like shared ownership or homes for sale. And this then helps fund our social housing work.

So SNG works really closely with the government. And that relationship has changed over time with different governments, depending on what's going on. We're heavily influenced by government decisions and the country's financial situation, essentially.

Yeah, definitely. And so one of the key ways that the government do support housing associations like ourselves is through grant funding. And that helps us to build affordable homes.

So however, the amount and the type of the funding available at a particular time can shift and change depending on who's in power and what policies they introduce and the state of the country at the moment and things like that. So for example, after the financial crash in 2010, funding was reduced at that time, obviously, and sort of redirected towards schemes like shared ownership, which would help give people the opportunity to get on the property ladder that they never would have got before.

Yeah. So essentially, when the government reduced funding after the financial crash, housing associations, we had to get creative.

Exactly. We had to think outside the box sort of thing. They couldn't rely on grants anymore in the same way that they had because they weren't available anymore.

So they started looking for other ways to sort of bring in money and like, for example, like building homes that they then put for sale on the open market.

It's a big shift though, isn't it? And I think it's a bit different from what people expect a housing association to do.

I think it is. It is a bit different. Yeah, but I think the idea is that the profit from these sales is then reinvested into building more affordable homes.

And then some organizations also merged to increase their borrowing power, which helped them.

Bit like us with our 18%.

Exactly, exactly, which helped them fund new developments. So it is a little bit different from what people expect, I think. But I think it's about making sure people understand that there isn't the profit that's generated is reinvested back into those homes and into the thriving communities.

So with all these changes in government funding, how does that affect us at SNG? And what are we planning?

Well, it puts us in a strong position, like financially with borrowing power and whatnot. I mean, we're pushing ahead with some ambitious plans. Ooh, excited.

So as we said, like over the next 10 years, we are aiming to build 25,000 homes, new homes, and around 90% of them will be affordable.

What does affordable actually mean, Phoebe? Because I feel like the word just gets...

It's different to everyone. Yeah. I mean, I suppose it's subjective, isn't it?

But I think it's a fair question, but... and affordable can mean different things depending on the context, obviously. But generally, it refers to homes that cost less the market rate.

So social rent and affordable rent, or schemes like shared ownership, basically. So the aim is basically for people on lower or middle incomes to still be able to access a safe, secure home without being priced out, essentially. So it's probably worth pointing out as well the difference between affordable rent and social rent, because I didn't even know this until I looked into it.

So essentially, social rent is usually lower and is set using a national formula based on things like local income and property size. Affordable rent can be up to 80% of the local market rate. So it's still cheaper than renting privately, but affordable rent is more expensive than social rent, for example.

So again, this is an option for housing associations to make when government grants are limited. It then kind of gives us a bit more flexibility to be like, we still need to build these homes are still needed. We still need to build them.

We might not be getting as much support as we'd like from the government. So this is how we're going to find our way to do something.

Yeah, get around that. So while the government decisions will always play a role as such, it's clear that housing associations like ourselves at SNG are thinking for the long term and making sure that we're ready for whatever comes next and able to be have that flexibility to see what happens and meet the demands of the nation at the time.

Yeah, I mean, all of our ambitions, they're built on what we've already learned, which is quite reassuring, how to adapt when funding changes, how to balance social purpose with financial resilience as well, all while doing our best to keep people at the heart of what we're doing. So it's really nice being able to talk about how all of these pieces fit together. We've spoken about our locality model, making sure that we're present and we're responsive.

We've taken a look at the bigger picture and how the government decisions shape what we can actually deliver as well.

Yeah. It's like we're constantly sort of, it's a balancing act, isn't it? So we're balancing the local and the national, and then on one hand, we're out there chatting with the customers face to face about the flytipping and the repairs and the things that's going on.

But then on the other hand, we're also planning how to build thousands of affordable homes in the future based on the funding policies that we don't even control or have sight of at the moment anyway.

We don't even know, yeah, who knows?

Who knows?

Who knows where this is going to go? But I think SNG's approach is built to adapt. And I think whether it's reshaping our teams to meet local demand or finding new ways to fund homes when grants are tight, I think we're not just reacting.

We are planning ahead.

Oh, yeah, we are planning ahead. And we're doing it in a way that keeps people at the center of it all, which is the most important thing.

Yeah, I think we're influenced by government decisions, but we're not defined by them.

No, no, I think it's fair to say.

You know, we've got a clear purpose. We've got a strong plan and a team that genuinely does care about the communities that we serve.

Yeah, and I think that feels like a good place to wrap up, I reckon.

We'll go to the outro.

Yeah, cool.

So thank you for tuning in to our very first episode of Turning the key at SNG. If you've ever wondered who we are and what we do, we hope today is giving you a clearer picture. So if you've got a question, a topic you'd like us to cover or someone you'd love to hear from, you can contact us about the podcast through Engage, which is engage.sng.org.uk, or you can visit our web page, sng.org.uk.

That was all my memory at that point. All of our links are linked below anyway. And then if you have a question about your home or your community, get in touch with our contact center by calling, emailing, or messaging us on Facebook.

Now, that's us locking up for now. See you next time.

Hello, and welcome back to Turning the Key at SNG. I'm your host, Phoebe, and it's great to have you with us again. Before we get started, just a quick reminder of why we're here.

This podcast is our space to have open and honest conversations, bringing customers and colleagues together, sharing what's happening across SNG, and making sure your voice is a part of how we move forward. So, whether you've listened to episode one, or you're joining us for the first time today, you're in the right place. In our last episode, we started from the beginning, looking at how SNG came to be the not-for-profit organization that it is today.

We talked about the locality model, and how we're working in communities more directly and more visibly. We looked at the mergers that shaped Sovereign and Network into one organization, and what that means for the homes, neighborhoods we serve. And we explored our relationship with the government, and the role social housing plays in the wider picture.

Today, we're going a step further, and we're talking about you. More specifically, your voice. This episode is all about a customer seat at the table.

How and why we engage with customers, what meaningful involvement actually looks like, and what it's like to sit alongside senior leaders and influence real decisions. Because customer voice isn't something that sits on the side of our work. It's the golden thread that should run through all of it.

And I'm really pleased to be joined by three voices who help connect our organization with our communities. First, we have Princess, a member of our customer influence panel, who helps to represent customers' perspectives at a strategic level across SNG. We're also joined by James, one of our digital engagement specialists, who supports customer engagement both online and across our older person schemes.

And finally, Tracy, engagement specialist who works closely with customers across our London and Southeast localities, helping to build relationships, run events, and support thematic groups. So thank you all for being here. Should we turn the key and go inside?

So lovely to actually have my team join us on the podcast. So hello, everyone.

Hello.

So many voices all at once. My goodness. So to give you a bit of info, our team sits within the Customer Experience Directorate.

Our team has five team members. We have our manager, and we've got our head of service. So we're all based in different locations across our geography, and each member of the team has slightly different priorities, which all aligns to our common goals and priorities for the team.

So Tracy, I'm going to come to you first. Can you tell me about your roles and responsibilities within the team?

Yes. So just a bit of background about myself first, really. I started at what was Network Homes 11 years ago.

So yeah, I still work in the London region, which is split into three separate regions, and the Hartford and South East region. And yeah, currently focus on the thematic groups, like the New Youth Voice Group, the Stigma Action Group, which is a resident-led group, who work closely with us to make sure that we have resident and customer insight. We basically cannot assume that we know what residents think and what they want.

We need input, so it's really vital, and it is gaining traction, and soon to be mystery shopping. So lots going on.

Amazing. So James, you're the Digital Engagement Specialist. Can you tell listeners what that actually means?

Well, digital is a wide, wide area, but at SNG, how we use digital is by giving people that voice online. It's around giving that option, that choice of time and space of when you can do it. So we know that people work, people have other things to do, other priorities.

We want to make sure that people can have their say when they want to. Now, we have a digital engagement platform, which is called Engage, and that is everybody's chance to have their say whenever they want to.

So can I just butt in there? What is a digital engagement platform? What does that actually mean?

Essentially, it's a website that you can register for. We have lots of prizes as well that you can win. By doing surveys, polls, online forums, focus groups.

And it's a great chance for us to capture that voice of people we don't essentially get to know. The other thing is, I've been here quite a long time.

You have.

I've been here 20 years. I feel like I've been here longer than I'll be married. I haven't, because I've been married a lot further.

But yeah, 20 years service. Been through quite a few mergers. But you know what?

The reason I'm still here is because actually, the difference the engagement service makes is absolutely massive.

And we'll get into that. I think we will have chance to talk about that as we carry on chatting. As a team, we have a simple mission, which is building relationships with customers, listening to feedback and suggesting ways to improve services.

And again, we will get into how we do this a bit more later. Also, we need to do a special little shout out to Charlotte and Lorna, who are not here today. They are the other two specialists that are over in our team.

So hello, wish you were here. But that's quite a nice segue into fully introducing our other guests today. So this is Princess Fortes.

And Princess is a member of the Customer Influence Panel. So hello. Hello.

So it's brilliant to have you with us today. And you've had such a powerful journey as a social housing customer and now as a member of the Customer Influence Panel. Can you take us back to the beginning and what first brought you into the world of customer engagement?

Hi, Phoebe. Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

My journey into the customer engagement happened quite naturally. I'd had a few experiences as a resident and it made me realize how important it is for people like me to have a voice. Not just to raise concerns, but also to help shape services and how services are being delivered.

I want to be part of something that could make things better, not just for myself, but also for other residents too. And that's what led me to get involved and eventually join the Customer Influence Panel. And prior to joining the Customer Influence Panel, I was the chair of the London Panel.

An excellent chair she was as well.

Thank you, Tracy.

Well, she was okay.

It's amazing to see your personal impacts of the involvement over the years. And we've mentioned a few times the Customer Influence Panel. Can you tell the listeners what the group is and its purpose?

Yeah, of course. So, the Customer Influence Panel, or we abbreviate it to SIP, is a group of residents who work with SNG at a strategic level. Our job is to review and influence things like business performance, policy strategies, and to make sure that the customer perspective is always at the forefront of the decision-making.

There are 11 of us on the panel, and we also have two customer board members who take that same insight directly to the board. The aim is to keep the customer's voice right at the center of everything that the organization does.

So you're already, as a SIP member, you're already operating at quite a high level with the strategic side of things. And then we've also got our two resident board members who, they go to, I mean, the board meeting is the top meeting in the organization, isn't it? So it quite literally is all the way to the top, which is quite reassuring.

One thing I'd like to know, and I think others would also like to know, is what's it like sitting at the table with senior leaders and the exec team and the CEO?

Phoebe, it's empowering

Oh, that's a good answer.

That's it.

You don't need to elaborate. No, it can be a bit nerve wracking at first because, especially if you're not necessarily from that type of background in terms of working at that level and sitting around people who are at a senior level, sometimes you can feel it can be a bit daunting. But then once you realize that your lived experience really matters, the people you're working with actually care about the customers and what they're doing and what's happening, and they actually want to involve and engage us in that decision making, it kind of turns it more into confidence.

And they also, what's the word I'm looking for? Encourage.

Push.

Encourage. Yeah, encouraging and push.

Yours is a bit more brutal, James.

Push.

Always.

But yeah, they kind of encourage you to kind of be open about what you're saying. And when you want to make a point and you see them stop and actually think about what it is you're saying in that moment, you really understand that the customer's perspective and how powerful it is to the decisions that are being made and the changes. And they're all as well.

I think as a customer, when you just think about an organisation, you just sometimes with your experiences might not necessarily think people behind the phone or because you don't have that face to face interaction, right? So you think, oh, do they actually really care? You know, they just in that job for the money, for example, because everyone has to work.

However, but when you sit down with them, you realise they actually do care about the job they're doing. They care about the customers and they want you to be their critical friend. They want you to actually say what isn't working in SNG.

And they actively do things to try and change that and make things different.

Princess, can I ask you? Yes. Do you feel welcome when you attend the meetings?

100%.

100%. Yeah, I think we get treated like royalty when we come here.

That's nice to hear, actually.

Yeah, I do. And everyone's so welcoming and just always friendly and happy and genuinely just want to make you feel comfortable enough to be able to give your voice across.

It must be nice, obviously, knowing that your voice is listened to. Do you have any examples of the impact you've managed to have within the SIP meeting?

Yeah, I think a good example is when we raised concerns about communication works after major repairs. And residents often felt not knowing what was happening next and that lack of communication. And when it was raised at the panel, part of that discussion meant that the process was reviewed.

And there's now clearer follow up and communication after jobs are done. So residents or customers, sorry, aren't felt, do not feel as though they just make a repair request, for example, somebody comes and then maybe they need a follow up job and then it's not done. Actually, they look at the whole process and how from beginning to end, customers are actually engaged within that process.

Can you tell me something that people don't realize when you're having these conversations with senior leaders?

We're not there to complain and we're actually there to collaborate. I think once, especially like in the community, once people hear what you're doing, the first thing is, can you get us housing? Or can you escalate the kind of complaints or repairs or stuff that they have, not fully understanding what our actual role is and what we're here to try and do.

We are there to give our perspective, not personally, but across the board. Although you might only have one person or two people, for example, represent in London, we're not there to represent our own individual views. We're there to represent the whole of that community and put that forward for everyone to try and make a difference.

So it's probably worth mentioning as well. If you have any interest in reading up on what the customer influence meetings are talking about, you can have a look on our website. So I've been privy to a few conversations that have happened at a SIP meeting, and so often I thought to myself, I really wish other customers could hear this.

There are some genuinely fascinating topics and discussions that come from these meetings, and there's nothing better than a senior leader realizing a customer's perspective right in front of you in the room. But I'd like to know, what surprised you most when you first sat at the table?

There was a lot of training that went in. I think how much actually goes on behind the scenes. I think from a customer's perspective, you just see your housing provider and you think that's it, but housing is so complex.

We talk about things like compliance, finance, community engagement, and there's so many different parts of housing that actually move and collaborate together. I was also pleasantly surprised. How much senior leaders actually want to hear from us.

They ask questions, they listen, and they also talk about how the panel potentially needs to change as well to make sure we are actually ensuring that we're making a difference and we're improving services. They take feedback on board and they want the panel to be productive in a space where we can actually make change.

So you've mentioned a little bit as well, but I want to bring it to the forefront, that some would say being involved with one of our resident panels or being an engaged resident can give you access to shortcut your repairs. What would you say to that?

No. I wish it did, but that's not how it works. If my boiler breaks down or I've got some issue in the home, I have to go through the same process as everybody else.

Even if I do know lovely people like the ones who are here today, they can't help.

I mean, I've had it as well. And I think this also kind of links to the stigma conversation as well. When I moved into my house and the first thing I got asked was, Oh, you got a house because you work for SNG.

I was too stunned to answer. I mean, I was like, no, no, not quite. I mean, I wish it was that easy.

Like that would be great. But obviously not. That's not the way.

There genuinely are no shortcuts. Behind the scenes, which we can confirm now. For our next segment, we want to take a moment to talk about why customer involvement in social housing truly matters and why it must never be treated as a tick box exercise.

On the 14th of June in 2017, we were all devastated to learn about the Grenfell Tower fire, a tragedy that shook the nation and exposed deep-rooted issues in housing, safety and accountability. It became a turning point for how resident voices needed to be valued and how organizations respond to those they serve. That moment in 2017 marked a shift, not just in public awareness, but in how housing providers began to rethink their relationships with residents.

It sparked a movement towards transparency, accountability, and genuine collaboration. And it's voices like yours, Princess, that have helped shape that change from inside out. So let's rewind a little bit.

Princess, do you remember where you were when you found out about the fire?

Yes, I do. I was living in London at the time. I remember waking up to the news that morning, and it was extremely heartbreaking and devastating.

It just wasn't the tragedy itself. It was knowing about the fact that residents had raised complaints and concerns for so many years and weren't heard and nothing was being done about it. They weren't being listened to.

And it really stuck with me and it made me very determined to do whatever I can to make sure residents' voices are never ignored again. And that's why I, part of the reason, also why I've joined a panel like this for SNG. I'm also a qualified social worker as well.

So at the time that borough was under a lot of pressure because of all the things that come after that in terms of people needing help and support and resources. So I was actually deployed down as a local borough to where the Grenfell was to go and help residents in terms of what they were experiencing in the aftermath of that. So not only personally, but also professionally as well, it was something that impacted us in social work because housing is not just isolated, it's all different organisations working together.

Yeah. The ripples it caused, the magnitude of it is honestly crazy. Tracy, you were also living in London at the time and also working for Network?

Yeah, I was actually in the contact centre still, still on the phones. And I don't think any of us or anyone who had a role across the country could ever forget just how the cool volumes just shot up. Obviously completely understandable.

People were scared. People living in large buildings. You could hear the stress in people.

The number of people trying to get through at one time, it was insane. It was horrible. You never ever want anything like this to happen.

It's an absolute nightmare and so tragic. And it should never have happened. And just to go back to what Princess said, what you said a minute ago, Princess, about the fact that the concerns have been raised, umpteenth times and nothing ever picked up on.

It's just there's no excuse for it. There's no excuse for it. We're talking about human life.

We all woke up to the news that morning, didn't we? Also on the early morning news. And you think, oh, God, what am I seeing?

It's almost like a 9-11 effect. You remember where you were when you found out.

Yeah.

Yeah. James, you've worked in housing for a very long time, as we've already mentioned, like a whole hundred years.

How did you notice the shift after Grenfell?

It was enormous, to be honest with you. I mean, everybody in the social housing sector was worried, was concerned, whether it be a tenant, employee, shared owner, leaseholder, colleague, contractor. I mean, ultimately, a light had been shone on everybody.

And it needed to have change, and change needed to happen quickly.

Yeah, and when we were kind of talking about the podcast before recording it now, we realised that your job title changed a month after Grenfell.

Yeah, it was quite strange, really. I mean, I was a resident engagement officer, and about a month later, it was changed to customer scrutiny officer, which was ultimately a direct change because of Grenfell.

So over a year after the tragedy in August 2018, the Green Paper was published. This is a consultation document from the government, and it sets out problems, options, and it starts to invite views, but it doesn't represent a settled policy. It kind of identifies what needs fixing, not just physically, but culturally.

And the paper lays out five core themes. Princess, do you know what these are?

Yes, so ensuring homes are safe and decent, effective resolution of complaints, empowering residents and strengthening the regulator, tackling stigma and celebrating thriving communities, expanding supply and supporting home ownership.

Yeah, so it was the first formal document post-Grenfell, so almost like a first official response from our government. And it explicitly ties social housing safety, resident empowerment and regulatory reform all together. So over two years later, in November 2020, the government published the white paper that followed from the consultation.

So it sets out the government's committed policy direction, moving from listening and diagnosing in the green paper to proposing concrete change. James, can you tell me about the purpose of the white paper?

Of course, yeah. The core purpose was to rebalance the relationship between residents and landlords. And it was to set out the actions the government will take to ensure that residents in social housing, poor things really, are safe, are listened to, live in good quality homes and have access to redress when things go wrong.

So making sure that if it does go wrong, action is taken.

You know what? In episode one, Ellie and I were just saying, it's so simple. It is so simple and look what this absolute tragedy has resulted in.

Something really simple that could have been in place before.

It's not rocket science, you know, and ultimately the green paper asked what's going wrong. The white paper was actually answering, this is how we're going to fix it. And it's one of those requirements in a strategy for how we'll engage with residents in tall buildings and it's massive.

It's a huge shift change and one we really, I think we've embraced it at SNG. I think we really have, because we have quite a lot of taller buildings. And I think it's just a really good way, from our point of view, of involving residents in what we do.

Yeah. So bringing this forward to the present day, the white paper didn't just set out principles, it changed expectations of every housing provider in the country. It signalled that the sector needed to move from compliance to culture, listening better, acting faster, being more transparent and placing residents at the centre of how decisions are made.

A bit like you were saying earlier, Princess. So for organisations like Network and Sovereign, we found our own responses. And since the merger, we've been bringing these new ways of working together.

Tracy, when you think back to that period after the white paper, what did you feel were the biggest shifts that the organisation needed to make?

I think it was the fact that residents do just need to be listening to your customers, if you like.

So essentially, the difference pre and post was we were listening before, now we have to.

We have to, and we have to demonstrate that as well.

Exactly.

And we are held to account on it, rightly so.

Yeah.

You know, at the end of the day, customers that they need to be listening to, that's all there is to it. It really is that black on white, you know, it's quite cut and dry.

So with our merger and becoming one organisation, Princess, can you tell us a little bit about what's been going on recently with SNG and building safety?

Yes. So there's been a particular focus on making sure residents in high-rise buildings understand the new safety requirement. And to support this, there's been in-person engagement events.

These events have given residents the chance to speak directly with building safety and fire safety specialists. During these conversations, the team has listened to concerns, took away actions. These have included repairs, ASB welfare concerns and issues with things like lifts.

They've spoken directly with residents through those visits, and all those conversations have been logged, monitored, and followed up. The next round of engagement events is now being planned as part of this ongoing work and there is work currently underway to create a building safety thematic group. So this will bring together SNG customers of all 10 years to keep residents' voice central to building safety decisions.

So what Grenfell laid bare was the real hurt that happens when decisions about people's homes are made without the people who live in them. And it reminded all of us that far too often, regulation follows tragedy rather than preventing it. We can't change what happened, but we can change how we work now.

So we've already spoken about SIP, which is the Customer Influence Panel, but there are other ways to get involved. You know, we try to make sure that there are enough different methods that suits individuals. James, can you tell us about our other resident panel?

Yeah, sure. We have our scrutiny panel, acronymed in inverted commas, to SP, strangely. And the aim of the SP, hashtag, scrutiny panel, is to carry out dedicated reviews of SNG services as requested by the Customer Influence Panel.

That's it. So the SP is supported by a wider pool of customers. Ultimately, they're called scrutineers.

So what they do is carry out ad hoc scrutiny reviews, things, activities like job shadowing, focus groups, speaking to other residents as well, finding out what's going on, really getting under the skin of what the service is being received like. So ultimately, results in making recommendations are based on business improvements. Then finally, the outcomes of each scrutiny are presented to the SNG board to agree how to implement the suggested changes.

There's that golden thread.

Yeah, right, Free. And we mentioned the board earlier, and it's important to remember that they're the top dogs. They're the ones making the big decisions.

So it's good to know that this is reaching board, which is really reassuring. Tracy, you've been taking the lead on some of our new thematic groups. You've already plugged one of them, but do continue to do more.

Could you tell us about the groups?

Yeah, so we want to ensure that engagement is flexible for everybody, really. So obviously, we have the custom influence panel, we have the scrutiny panel, but we have groups that are more flexible thematic groups, so different themes, really. So obviously, I'm going to say again, we've got the stigma in social housing one.

Yeah, yeah, I know I sound a bit obsessed, don't I? You can tell your world has been obsessed a bit. Yeah, and it's resident-led, and it's a group of currently six residents who we meet monthly, and they're there to keep us on track to make sure that our action plan has their voice at the heart.

Princess, we've been traveling around our localities for our road shows over the last year, so can you tell us about that?

Yeah, so throughout the year, we've been popping up in each of our localities for a road show. There's opportunities to get colleagues and customers together to talk about issues in their communities, things such like grounds maintenance, the ASB officers, employment and skills, and the new contractors in any other department. James, what's your views on?

Well, what we do is some sort of targeted, don't really like using that word targeted, but it's ultimately what it is, community consultations. So it's in areas where we really need to target most. Here's that word target again.

Target.

It's around if there's low satisfaction or there's high amount of repairs being reported or vice versa, where there's high satisfaction and even like low amount of repairs. And it's just making sure we get into those communities and work closely with the locality officers, that used to be housing officers, who invite us to help facilitate real meaningful conversations. It's whether it's focused on specific state issues, blocks of flats or any other local area.

And then of course we've got our podcast, which kind of does what it says on the tin. I don't think we need to talk about that too much, but this is something that we hope becomes a regular space where these voices and experiences and questions can keep shaping how SNG work. But this is the chance for you guys to listen and hear what's going on behind the scenes.

Blockers, right. So inevitably we have blockers along the way, quite a lot of them a lot of the time, and we have to get quite creative to kind of reaching our end goal sometimes. We're a bit of a unique team and we don't really operate like any other team within the business.

So yeah, we do have to get creative. So Tracy, what are some blockers that you've come across?

For me, I think it's the sheer size of the organization that we are now and the stretch of the geography that people's homes are in.

James, what about you?

So digital-wise is where I'm coming from. So there's a real lack of digital confidence, especially with the older generation in inverted commas. So our housing for older people schemes, we're designing TNTech style chats where we can really, really encourage people to take part in a digital way.

That's not scary. I mean, ultimately, a lot of people feel really hesitant about using digital and online methods. But the way the world is now, applying for benefits or having your wages paid in, it's all around digital methods.

So, and housing for all the people really do struggle with making sure that they can have their voice. And actually, I'm going to be going into schemes. I'm going to be making that point that actually, it's not scary at all.

I might be scary, but digital is not. Yeah, you are.

Heard it here first. He is terrifying. You guys listening can't even see him.

He's so scary. So, SNG has a Facebook page, an Instagram page and a YouTube account. But on Facebook, we don't usually encourage comments, which people might have noticed on our posts, because the reason for this is because of the volume of unnecessary contact that that then creates for our advisor in the contact center.

Yeah, I mean, it's fair to say that there is a place for Facebook comments. But if you're trying to report a repair in our comments, not a lot we can do about it publicly.

Yes, we do need to do security checks, and they are incredibly frustrating, incredibly boring, but actually, with anyone, before they can book a repair, update their details or discuss their situation, we ask people to private messages on Facebook instead. And we'll only ever ask for personal details to be sent via a secure channel. And you wouldn't want your repair request, let's call it that, sat on a Facebook for everyone to see.

You know, we're not trying to stop people from commenting their views. We do want to hear them. There being a big organization, there just needs to be certain routes in which we do that.

Yeah, 100%. I understand why it has to happen. And it can get tricky to manage and things can easily get lost or misinterpreted.

But I also think it shows how much customers want to be heard. I think the challenge for SNG is finding the right space for those conversations. Yeah.

And there's great platforms like Engage, James. Our road shows where feedback can actually be picked up and acted on. I'd love to see a culture where every resident feels confident that their voice really matters, whether that's online, in person, or even through a quick poll on their phone.

So engagement shouldn't feel like an advert. It should feel like a natural part of how we all live and work together.

Yeah. The reality is that we want to have these two-way conversations, but the routes in which we can do that, they are limited, is the world that we live in. Like I've said, we're a big organization, and there needs to be specific routes which customers can take to report their repair or to speak to someone.

Otherwise, it quite simply just doesn't work. Very quickly though, if there were no blockers, no restrictions, what would your blue sky thinking be for engagement? I'll come to you first, James.

I mean, engagement, we do have lots of different methods, but what we do struggle with is a younger generation in terms of them having their voice. You know, we're trying to get people involved on our youth voice group. They are future residents or actually are residents that are going to have a long journey with us, and we want to make sure they are heard as well.

Too right.

I feel like busting out some Whitney Houston. I believe the children are the future.

Please don't say Tracy.

I wouldn't put it on you.

James and Tracy have spent far too much time together in the last 24 hours, by the way. They've turned into an old married couple. It's wonderful.

Great to observe, but for a bit. Anyway, what would your blue sky thinking be?

Oh, it all comes down to money, doesn't it really?

Money, money, money.

And limited amounts of money, where we can possibly have more colleagues in the team. We can do more focused, localized, in-person events, more regularly.

Yeah.

Yeah, that would be nice.

That's nice. And what about you, Princess?

Just having someone available when you need them, and not having those issues with access, where you may go through a call center and you can't get someone specifically. You might have your named locality person, but what if they're not available? Who else can you speak to?

And just probably having a little bit more open discussions, I think would be good.

So we'd be silly not to mention some of the upcoming opportunities that we have to engage with us. So Lorna, our colleague who sadly couldn't be with us today, she's not dead or anything, she's not here.

I heard how that sounded.

She's in the office, but she's fine.

Lorna's alive.

Calling Lorna.

We're currently holding hands trying to channel Lorna and she's about to walk in. So Lorna is setting up office road shows. So basically the team's going to be setting up shop in our offices, speaking to colleagues around how they engage with their customers.

As well as that, Lorna is also running engagement training to colleagues. Basically to understand the ins and outs of why we engage a bit, like today's podcast, I suppose. And the reason for mentioning that now is, since the merger, we've got a new policy in place for colleagues to be offered volunteering hours throughout the year.

Thank you, Network, for bringing that in, because we didn't have that former Sovereign.

You're welcome.

On behalf of Network.

On behalf of Network, yeah.

So obviously colleagues can use their hours however they choose. It's a personal preference. But we did want to offer an option where colleagues can come out to our roadshows and to our consultations and to door knocks and whenever we are physically within a locality, especially if they're in a role that doesn't usually face customers.

So we want to offer that as well. And just to let you know, we advertise all of our customer events on our socials and our websites, so you can stay up to date.

And on Engage.

Oh, I knew that was coming.

engage.sng.org.uk.

So that's where we're going to wrap up today's episode of Turning the Key at SNG. A huge thank you to all of my guests, Tracy, James, and Princess for sharing your experiences, your honesty, and your insight into what it really means for customers to have a seat at the table. And I hope you like our table that you've been with today.

Love it. It's quite a nice table, isn't it? Yeah, sturdy.

As tables go, not bad.

And thank you all for listening. These conversations only matter if they connect back to you and your homes, your communities, your experiences. So we'd really love to hear your thoughts.

What resonated today? What questions do you have? What would you like to hear more about?

So head over to our web page or Engage, which is listed below. You can share your feedback or get involved in customer engagement in lots of ways through our road shows, thematic groups, resident panels, or simply by logging on to Engage, our online engagement platform. The amount of plugs Engage has had is a little bit crazy.

You can never have too many plugs, Phoebe.

I think there's a housing pun there somewhere. Next time, I'm going to be handing over the microphone to one of our customers, Nicola. So Nicola will be stepping in as a guest host, and she'll be leading a conversation all about sustainability and retrofit improvements to our existing homes.

So what it means for our homes, our bills, our future, and our planet. We're really excited for you to hear what she has to say and to hear directly from a customer leading the conversation, a customer seat at the table in action. But before we go, we are ending each episode with something new.

We're inviting our resident guests to ask a question forward for the next resident on the podcast. Kind of like passing the mic from one resident voice to another. So before we close, Princess, what's the question you'd like to ask Nicola, our next host?

So Nicola, since you'll be leading the next conversation on sustainability and retrofit, it will be good to know what's one simple thing you think every resident can do to make their home a little bit more environmentally friendly.

There we go. That will do it.

Good luck, Nicola.

And with that, thank you again for joining us. We are going to lock up and turn the key. Take care and we'll speak soon.

Hello, and welcome back to Turning the Key at SNG. I'm Nichola, one of SNG's customers, and today I'm stepping in as your guest host while Phoebe hands me the mic. She's done such a great job.

I was like, thought, let's give her a little break and I'll take the reins. It's a real privilege to be here, helping to bring customer and colleagues together in the same room to have open, honest conversations about the things that shape our homes, our communities and our future. If you joined us last time, you'll remember we took a deep dive into customer voice, how residents influence decisions at SNG, what meaningful involvement looks like, and why listening to lived experience helps guide the organization forward.

And today we're building on that theme by exploring something that affects every home, sustainability. We're talking about greener homes, healthier spaces, and the huge amount of work that goes into making properties fit for the future. From retrofit and regeneration to funding challenges, to what sustainability actually looks and feels like for the people living in these homes.

This episode links strategy with the real life experience. Today, I'll be joined by Jim Dyer, SNG's built environment director, and Kathryn Hulkes, our head of retrofit delivery, to talk through some of SNG sustainability's vision, and how we assess and prioritize homes, and how we are improving experiences for customers. So whether you're listening as a customer, a colleague, or someone curious about how we create warmer, greener, more future-proof homes, you're in the right place.

Let's turn the key and get started. Jim, Kathryn, thank you so much for joining us. For anyone who doesn't know you, could you introduce yourself and tell us about your role at SNG?

Yeah, hi, good morning. Jim Dyer, I'm director for the built environment in SNG. I work in the investment and development side of the business.

Fantastic.

Kathryn? Yeah, good morning, everybody. I'm Kathryn, I'm head of Retrofit Delivery.

So my role is to take our Retrofit strategy and turn it into something that really means something in real life, so in our customers' homes.

Thanks, lovely to have you guys on. Let's start big. When we talk about SNG sustainability vision, what does that mean for the organization and customers?

So sustainability for me is about, we need to turn the conversation around into a language that our customers understand. Sustainability actually means is clean air, healthy homes, nature, biodiversity, well-being, affordability. So when you turn the language around, it can start to resonate with customers.

And I think that's the opportunity to, if we're going to be successful, we need to bring our customers with us, talk in a language that really means something to them. And Homes in Place, therefore, for SNG, is that tool that we use to engage with our customers and bring it down to our customer level.

So let's talk about Homes in Place standard. For anyone who doesn't know, can you explain a little bit about what it is and how SNG's journey towards Net Zero supports that?

Our Homes in Place standard was really conceived about seven years ago, pre-COVID. And we went to our customers to ask them, what is it that you want and value in your homes and your places? So that was a very healthy conversation.

And when COVID came along, it taught us things that we perhaps had taken for granted. And that is the things that we valued were the things that were taken away from us.

Green spaces, being able to walk in the park.

Fresh air, daylight, meeting people.

A dog, you couldn't go outside.

Exactly. And the statistics showed that those who lived in the worst housing suffered the most through COVID. So it really kind of brought to life that the quality of the home really matters.

And that complimented where we started with Homes in Place. So Homes in Place is very much about delivering the real things that matter to customers. And if we kind of summarize it, it's about customer priorities of health and wellbeing and affordability.

It's about placemaking and communities and net zero on carbon. That comes out the back end. It's about if we get the customer things right upfront, carbon and net zero will take care of itself.

And it's so important. Your home is your sanctuary. It's where you come home after a hectic day.

It's where you feel safe. And it's so important for it to be that perfect place, you know, it's built to a good standard. You're happy that it looks great.

It feels great. It's efficient.

Yes.

So, yeah. Can you explain a little how we use the Homes and Place Standard?

Sure. We use the standard in a number of ways. It's not just a design guide.

It's not just about setting targets. It's about a number of uses where we measure the quality of our existing housing stock. So we've scored and measured the quality of about 85,000 homes across the whole of our geography.

And that tells us where we've got strengths and weaknesses. So now we can start to inform investment decisions and priorities into our existing housing stock. That then informs how we may consider new build, replacement, regeneration or retrofit.

And it's a very kind of strategic lens that we use at that level. When we look at new build and new homes, we use the tool in a very exciting way and dynamic way where we use it to measure three things, the home, the place and sustainable futures. And when we take those together, we start to get a real insight into holistic outcomes.

And it's not a pass fail tool. We use it to basically inform investment and it's a judgment. So it really does inform how we spend money and where and for what outcomes.

And finally, when we use it on existing homes, it's about retrofit and Kathryn will talk about that. It's very much about those health and well-being and affordability outcomes as well as carbon outcomes. So it's a very dynamic tool and it's very unique in the sector and industry and we're very proud of it.

Amazing. Could you elaborate a little on the three sections and the metrics? So you said the home, the place and the sustainability.Sure. So when we talk about the home, we really challenge yourself on things that matter, space standards, daylight, storage, play space for the home, the energy efficiency of the home. When we talk about place, we think about green space, nature, healthy environments, social infrastructure, community facilities.

How do we encourage people to communicate and linger and connect and build a future together in place? And sustainable futures is very much looking to energy, energy efficiency, carbon emissions. So when you pull those three things together, perhaps they're in tension with each other, but when we start to overlay them, we start to see a real opportunity for holistic outcomes that keep those customer outcomes really at the heart of our decision making.

Okay, so to clarify, the home and place standard means that you want all of your stock to be at a certain standard, and it will encompass energy efficiency, space, storage, making sure the community has a good infrastructure. You know, there's things that kids can go, it reduces ASB, all of this kind of stuff. People feel connected, and also looking to the future, sustainability.

I think that's a huge, huge thing that we should be looking at, and I'm so proud that the industry as a whole has this standard to work by, but also that it's constantly being improved.

I think that's right, and I would say the strength of Homes in Place is that when we consider the challenges of regulation and policy, and it's complex and it's difficult, and we use Homes in Place as a north star, as a compass, to help direct us, keep our eye on the horizon, the right outcomes over the longest time. So Homes in Place keeps us true to our purpose and outcomes that we seek.

Okay, guys, let's get interesting. Let's talk about Retrofit. Kathryn, can you tell us what it is?

I can. I think it's really important to kind of simplify this for everyone, because there's a lot of jargon out there, there's a lot of buzzwords. So Retrofit basically means adding new technology or improvements to something that already exists.

So when we talk about Houses, we're talking about insulation or upgrading heating systems, putting in new technologies such as air source heat pumps, solar panels, battery storage, and looking at air tightness and ventilation. So it's really important that we look at the whole house rather than individual single measures. And that's certainly what we do guided by our Homes and Plays standard.

And it really helps the home stay warmer, costs to run go down, and our customers feel more comfortable all year round.

I have a follow on question in terms of ventilation. So we talk about ventilation in the walls, keeping the heat in. What about the windows?

And double glazing, all the stock up to date for the double glazing. Is it the customer's responsibility to do the... What's the word I'm looking for?

You get...

Air tightness?

Yeah.

Draft proofing?

Draft proofing. But also, the silicone base thing you put around the windows. God, the names eluded me.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Mastic?

There you go.

No, mastic isn't the one that you put on the windows. Mastic is the one you put around the bathrooms. I think it's different.

No, you put mastic around the windows when you install it. So you install it and then there'll be a thin, normally white, but any particular color. But yeah, it sits around the frame.

Is that the company's organization's responsibility or do the customers have to do that as well?

No, so we do that. So that's part of our specification and our standard when we install windows, we do that.

It's a great point because when we come on, perhaps you'll talk about this, but when we come on to retrofit, there are measures you can do quickly for the greatest kind of outcome and cheaply. So that's a very important first step to retrofit is protecting the air tightness of our homes.

But that being said, ventilation is a really important point. So especially, and we'll take this as an example, where you are making a building more air tight, the building still has to breathe. So if we take windows, for example, there will be trickle vents in the windows.

It's really important that those remain open. So that's something that we'd encourage our customers to do. So the trickle vent sits at the head of a window, and effectively, it goes from the outside to the inside of the home.

And it helps air changes within the property to make sure that moisture is being taken out, that vapour is being taken out and improves the internal air quality.

In terms of ventilation, I volunteered with Age UK and I speak to this lovely lady called Angela. And she gave me a great tip. She said, you should open your windows and doors about five to ten minutes in the morning to let air in and then close it.

I first thought, well, you're letting out a lot of heating at that point. But then I've been doing it and I've seen a reduction in condensation build up and a lot better air quality. Would you recommend doing something like that?

Well, I certainly do that, to be fair. So yeah, absolutely. Anything to help improve internal air quality.

And like you say, it doesn't have to be for long. We're not suggesting that people open their windows and leave them open for hours. But yes, five or ten minutes in the morning.

And plants, having plants would also be a great way for air quality, ventilation. They're soaking up the carbon dioxide, letting out oxygen.

Plants I've managed to keep alive inside of orchids. Everything else I managed to kill off. So I'm not sure I'm the best person.

They're actually quite difficult to keep alive. I think aloe vera and spider plants are super easy. They're very hardy.

I might try those now.

I'll have to bring one in for you. SNG has one of the most ambitious retrofit programs in the sector. Can you walk us through how we prioritize homes and what sort of improvements we make?

Yes, indeed, we do have an ambitious program. Over the next 10 years, our target is to retrofit 1,500 homes a year over 10 years. That's a big, big commitment.

That's about half a billion in investment. So we're very proud of that. And we as a business are actually targeting a quality beyond the minimum compliance that other companies are aiming for.

So we're proud of that. But what we have to do is make the right decisions and the right properties for the right outcomes. So using our Homes in Place standard, we use that to identify the right properties or streets or communities where the greatest positive outcome can happen.

And we have to balance that against the house type. Some are more complex than others. That means they're going to be more costly and complicated.

So for us, it's about value for money. We need to balance the value for money with the archetypes, the house types, so that we get the best outcomes. So we use Homes in Place as a guiding light as to where we invest and for what outcomes.

It's like the Bible, the go-homes-in-place standard. It's our DNA.

Sure, absolutely. It really does inform our thinking. And it's not just loosely applied.

It's deeply integrated into our systems, our thinking and our investment priorities.

I love that. You said some homes are more complicated, depending on different archetypes of houses. Which would be more complicated?

Well, some of your period properties, solid wall properties at Warden. Yes. So they've got solid walls and that creates complexities.

A very large percentage of our stock is more modern. You know, it's 70s, 80s, 90s. That means cavity construction.

And that's easier and quicker to insulate. I'm sorry, that's when you've, instead of a solid wall, you've got two skins. So you've got a brick and a block, and there's a gap in the middle, and that's full of insulation.

So we try to prioritize those house types that are less complicated, quicker to retrofit, so that our customers get the best kind of outcomes in the quickest time. So it's a very careful selection process.

I think it's probably also worth talking about planning constraints. So we're very lucky in a lot of areas that we have homes, that there aren't planning constraints, and therefore you've got a fairly wide range of measures that you could apply to those homes. When you start bringing in planning regulation as well, it does start to limit the things that you can do.

I mean, if we took Dorset, for example, solar panels could be a problem because they're in a conservation area, they can't be on the front elevation. Would they work as well if you put them on the rear elevation? They may not.

Also, air source heat pipes.

When you say rear elevation, could you elaborate?

Sorry, the front or the back of a property?

I think a lot of people, I only found this out, I think it was last year, I was slightly embarrassed, but solar panels only work, they're self-facing, is that correct?

No.

Oh, sorry, am I on the wrong way around?

So they work in any orientation, but they are most efficient when they are self-facing because they will get most exposure to sunlight, but they don't have to be solely self-facing to work. So it's just one of the things that we specifically endorse it, but we will get in London as well. I mean, London itself is a whole other...

If we get sun, I'm yet to see it. I think the majority of people in the UK are vitamin D deficient.

I mean, the great news is the technology has changed so much in a short space of time, and the efficiency of these panels is much better than it has been. So in fact, if you're east, west, south, and maybe even north, panels still work and still deliver efficiencies. So technology is really helping.

Is the idea in the future to have all of our stock with solar panels?

That would be the aspiration, yes, because it really does drive energy bills down for our customers. And that's a key consideration for the business. And it certainly helps with reducing our carbon emissions.

It really does depend house by house and...

And how much sun you get as well.

It's a lot of things because it's not just about how much you generate, but it's how it's used within the home. So if you're a household that is at home all of the time, you aren't necessarily going to see the same level of benefit as somebody who's not at home all the time. So it's very individual to a household, which makes it very difficult for us to say exactly how much somebody is going to save.

But it does make a significant impact.

But as we do look to the future, it's not just about solar panels, it's about battery storage. And when you combine those two things together, you have a great opportunity to reduce energy bills for customers.

Why do we need battery storage?

The future of housing is symbiotic with the future of energy and how we use energy, how we harness energy, clean energy. Now, the climate emergency and sustainability is all about moving away from fossil fuels because of the impact that has on the climate. Moving towards renewable energy, which is clean electricity generated from solar panels or wind, that has to go into the grid.

And what we have in this country is an infrastructure that needs to be invested in. So at the moment, there's great opportunities to use batteries and solar panels together to buy and sell electricity from the grid. At different times of night, every half hour, there are different pricing mechanisms.

So if your house is smart and has technology and PV or solar panels and battery, you can actually, we can organize to buy clean green electricity in the middle of the night at the cheaper rates, store that electricity into batteries, and then we're getting the best outcome for the customer and the planet through that combination of technology. So batteries and solar panels and housing and energy have to be considered together for the future

But put a bit of reality into that. This doesn't mean that we're gonna be handing checks out to customers. Customers will see the benefits of this in reductions in their bills, rather than checks coming through the door in the post.

But the benefits to customers with batteries and solar panels will be much more than if they just had the solar panels installed.

Where we're investing is fantastic. Smart technology, solar panels, PV batteries, what it can do for the customer, what it can do for the company through operational efficiencies, proactive asset management, innovation, R&D. It's at the heart of what we're doing at the moment as a company.

But I think the other thing as well is it actually allows the industry to be ambitious. And we're here to provide a service, and we absolutely are. We are here to provide good quality homes for our customers.

But that doesn't mean that we can't be ambitious in what we want to achieve for our customers. And certainly the Homes and Places Standard, but Retrofit really gives us that opportunity because technology is moving so quickly. Things that we're installing today are absolutely right for installing.

But in a year, two years, five years time, there'll be something new that makes what we've done now look outdated. So it's a very fast paced, very exciting industry to be in, and place to be for social housing, I think.

That's amazing. A good, interesting question. What are we investing in now that you think will be obsolete?

Because you said in 10 years time, we might not be using the same technologies, or you're just unsure. It could be change.

I think there's a lot. I mean, technology in sustainability and retrofit has changed so much already. I mean, five, 10 years ago, we weren't talking about putting batteries into homes, and we are now talking about batteries in homes at scale.

So it's just, it's, I think, like I said before, I don't think we're investing in the wrong thing. What we're doing today is absolutely right for what we are doing today, but I think it's important that we don't rest on our laurels and we kind of keep our finger on the pulse and keep up with changing technology, because there will be more innovation. You know, heat pumps will get smaller.

Just, you know, one of the things at the minute, you know, as anyone will know who's got one, heat pumps, you know, they're quite big units, and we can't get around that, but they will, they will reduce.

And it's probably worth talking about what we're doing in the heat pump space. And this is something we're very proud of and very excited by, because heat pumps, as perhaps we know them today, are large and they're necessitated. Radiators need to be removed, and it's hard for customers to perhaps accept that.

But we've been leading research and innovation with heat pump manufacturers over the last couple of years. And we think we've arrived at a significant breakthrough in technology where we're going from low-temperature heat pumps to high-temperature heat pumps, which means you don't need to remove the radiators, you don't need to remove the pipe work. So it's going to be quicker, least intervention for the customer, and hopefully a better performance all around.

So SNG are very proud to be leading the way on innovation and R&D because we think it delivers better outcomes for the customer and operational efficiency as well.

Could you explain a little bit more about heat pumps, what they are? And also the use of radiators, because a lot of customers use their radiators, especially in the winter when you can't dry clothes outside or on a rack. So taking away the radiator would be...

Sure, let's clarify that point. We're not taking away radiators. Yeah.

So what Jim is talking about is the difference between, this is going to get really technical, a low temperature heat pump and a high temperature heat pump. So low temperature heat pumps, the water that's circulating around the system is at a low temperature, so it runs at about 55 degrees. Because of that, you tend to have to have very large radiators to get the same amount of heat into that home.

And by doing so, it can mean that customers lose space within the property. It may be that the walls aren't big enough to accommodate the size of the radiator that you think you're going to need. Whereas the high temperature, as it would suggest, runs at a much higher temperature.

So at the minute, it's 65. We're pushing industry to get that to be 75. So that's part of the R&D that Jim was talking about.

And that means that the radiators that that system needs should be very similar to the radiators that you would have on a traditional gas boiler system. So instead of us coming in and taking all the pipe work out and ripping the radiators off the wall, it should be a case of coming in and removing the gas boiler and simply connecting up an air source heat pump. So the installation time goes down, but also the intrusion to customers, the length of time we're there, the disruption, the redecoration afterwards.

So yeah, as Jim said, it's massively game changing for industry.

Fantastic. How are we learning from those situations and improving the resident experience?

So I think it's really important to acknowledge that things go wrong. We're human. Nobody turns up to work with the intention of things going wrong, but things do go wrong, whether it's a leak, a missed appointment, communication hasn't been particularly clear or we have issues with our contractors.

We recognize when that happens, it can have a massive impact on those individual households and customers. But what matters the most to us is about how we recover that situation. So what do we do in the first instance?

And for us, it's all about getting in quickly and supporting those customers. And within my team, we have a fantastic group of resident liaison officers who are there, they're close to customers all the way through the journey, but they really help get through those bumpy periods. And once we've resolved that particular issue, we take a step back and we have a look at what has caused that situation.

Do we need to improve the process? Is there something that our contractors should be doing that they aren't doing? And is it something that we need to do internally or is it something that we need to do with our partners, with our delivery teams?

That being said, though, when it goes right, the impact is incredible. And it happens straight away. The beauty of retrofit work is, once you have made that change, the impact to that customer and the benefit felt is almost immediate.

Customers now tell us their homes are warmer and they're spending less on their energy bills. But more than that, their wellbeing has improved. They're happier in their homes.

We've got customers who have health conditions that have massively benefited because they can now afford to heat their homes. Whereas before, they perhaps couldn't. And I'm going to take a minute just to direct people to our website because there are a couple of case studies on there with our customers, Steve and Andrea, who have had this work done.

They had SLC pumps fitted with solar panels, battery storage, insulation upgrades and new windows and doors. And they talk really nicely about how that has had an impact on their lives and simple things that a lot of us take for granted. Having an extra bit of money at the end of the month, they can treat their grandchildren, they can treat themselves a bit more.

So there's a really human element to what we're doing. And that is absolutely one of the key drivers for the programs that we have.

That was a great response. And I think this is what this podcast is about. It's about being transparent.

It's about SNG taking accountability for where they've gone wrong, learning from their mistakes and wanting to give that, the customer the best experience possible. And I think it's important. I think some people are hesitant to go with retrofit.

They're thinking, well, this is invasion. How much difference is it actually going to make? So you're clarifying those points that it does make a big difference at the end of the month.

And you are going to have that little bit of money. And you try to mitigate any issues. Sometimes even without the out of your hands, if it's contractors coming in and causing delays.

So yeah, I applaud you for your honesty and transparency. I think it's important. And I'm glad that we're here having this conversation.

Absolutely. I think one of the things that I do want to get across is that we do recognize how intrusive this work can be. But the team is absolutely here to work with customers, even on a one-on-one basis for specific needs to make sure that that journey is as comfortable as it can be whilst it's being carried out.

So let's talk about a little bit more of a difficult subject, retrofit versus regeneration. Now obviously we have aging homes. Not all homes are purpose or fit for retrofit.

So when we talk about regeneration, can you explain what regeneration is, what the process is like and how you decide on what properties are retrofit and what properties are regeneration?

Yeah, so we touched on earlier our Homes in Place standard. So the Homes in Place standard will guide us to areas where greater investment is needed than can be provided through retrofit. And that could be whole estates, that could be whole streets, it could be a small cluster of properties that are fairly rural to our geography.

It's much more complex than retrofit. With retrofit works, we can do the work with customers living in their own home. With regeneration, it becomes much more emotive, it's much more of a difficult conversation to have with our customers.

And we find it quite difficult to have as well. But it's done to build community, to make the areas future-proofed and to really enhance the lives of the customers that are living there.

That talks to the kind of long-term goal of sustainable communities. And if we're looking about creating new communities, we look at the opportunity of starting with that conversation with our customers, asking them, what is your vision for your community over time? How can we help you realize that vision?

How can we bring employment, better housing and schools, creating a vibrant community, a healthy community? So regeneration is massive in its scale and opportunity and retrofit is just a part of that.

It is a really difficult conversation to have with customers and it must be incredibly difficult for you guys as well to have to deal with that emotion. I think it's really important that you take the customer into consideration. You said, Jim, that you bring them in and you discuss the whole process.

Yeah, it's a journey, a journey of conversation, engagement. We will sit with communities, we'll have think tanks, we'll have working groups, we'll basically tease out fears, hopes, aspirations with our customers. And then that starts to shape the thinking about what we need to do for that community over the longer period.

It's a journey. It takes time.

So in reality, the customers are part of that journey and they're a big part in having a say in their local area.

Fundamental.

Absolutely.

There's been also focus recently on funding for energy improvements. The National Infrastructure Commission estimates 5.1 billion is needed for home energy upgrades by 2050. But the Warm Homes Fund and the SHDF together allocate only 1.36 billion.

How does SNG bridge that gap and how do we make the most of the funding that we do receive?

You're right, there is a gap and it's a significant gap and it's not enough to address the needs of national housing stock. The government has got a fantastic funding program. Over the last three years, we've been fortunate enough to secure two rounds of funding, about 55 million pounds.

The key thing there is we need to allocate that money wisely and deliver the maximum outcomes for the minimum spend and get that balance right. So we have to be very careful in where we allocate that money and when. So we have to be creative, and we've got some great ideas about how we can do that.

But it's a big problem, but it's certainly something we have to face into. Just for more information, that the more we do this and the more we can demonstrate the value it brings customers, we hope to be able to demonstrate to government that the impact in NHS and the welfare state through investing in homes, we can reduce the burden if we invest in homes. And that means no more reactive costs at the back end.

And I think the numbers are every year the NHS suffers or it incurs 1.4 billion in reactive cost to cold homes, poor homes, and about 18 and a half billion in welfare impacts. So if you consider they are reactive costs to poor housing, if the government could look at that and repurpose funding to the front end into the housing stock, you could actually start to have a much bigger impact on the economy. We hope over time that we can demonstrate with other housing associations that the evidence supports that funding should be increased to deliver better outcomes for the government.

I suppose just talking to that, we are just about to start our first round of research specifically to support that point. So we've done something like 1800 retrofits in the last two years. So we're starting to get a really good base data to be able to do that.

So over the next 12 to 18 months, we're actually starting that research journey to support that exact argument that we want to bring to government.

Are the housing associations and local councils also doing the same research?

So they are. What we would like to do is to, and this is still very much a journey that we need to go on, but link up with others. So if you think about our operating area, there are a number of local authorities and other housing providers that are doing exactly the same kind of, not exactly the same, but very similar kind of work that we are doing.

And therefore, collectively, we are having a massive impact on individual NHS trusts. So we're starting on our own, but we will shortly be having conversations with other providers in the area about linking up and then going to the trust and working at how we bring that together.

What comes to worst? We get our signs, we go up to the Parliament. That's it.

We need more investment. We need more money.

But that's it. I mean, there's a lot of good things that come out of government and there's a lot of noise that comes out of government, as we all know. So it's how do we cut through that in a meaningful way that we can demonstrate clearly?

And there is a massive opportunity for industry, social housing, whether it's social housing providers, whether it's manufacturers, whoever it might be, to actually bring the challenge back to government and demonstrate this, because as much as we talk about, we've been incredibly successful with the funding that we have achieved, we recognize the gap. There is more that could be done if we can demonstrate the savings elsewhere.

The housing associations have an important role. We are, in fact, pathfinders for government, for policy. We consider the big outcomes over the longest period.

And I think the evidence, we need to build that evidence base within the sector to have a meaningful conversation with government.

What's the most heated internal debate SNG has about sustainability? Now I want some good gossip. What's happening on the inside?

Get the punching gloves out. In the left corner, we have Kathryn. In the right corner, we have Jim.

I think for me, it's exactly that. It's budgets. Social housing is quite rightly very heavily regulated.

So it's competing priorities. It's fire safety, it's compliance, it's meeting net zero targets, it's sustainability. So yeah, it's who's getting the funding this year and who gets to do a full programme and who doesn't.

And that's right. It's a positive tension because it's about short term needs and compliance, but equally planning for the future and making sure that the money we do invest actually delivers longer term outcomes. So that inevitable tension between the short term and long term is that.

Do the departments feel that? Like, do you feel that with the other departments? You know, when they come in and you're talking to the big guys about funding, do you like try and one up them?

I don't think we try and one up each other, but there's definitely...

That department's doing terrible. Look at that record. It's just big of all the funding.

I think the thing is, is that we're all looking out for the right things for us and our teams and what we need to deliver. So there's definitely a healthy competition, I think is probably how I'd phrase that one.

But you've touched on a very pertinent point. The tensions within the organization are real and tangible. And everyone's right.

Everyone has their priorities. But sometimes you need to be able to just cut through and say, what are you aiming for? Customer outcomes.

What are you aiming for? Customer outcomes. So in fact, we're talking about the same thing.

So actually we don't need to compete. We just need to focus on the outcome. And then we can start to be happy that we're, you know, maybe going at different speeds, but we're actually aligned in our thinking.

Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Kathryn. It's been absolute pleasure having you on the podcast today.

I really appreciate your honesty, your transparency. I've learned some new things and hopefully our listeners have too and hopefully we'll have you again on in the future. Thanks so much.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of Turning the key at SNG. A huge thank you to Jim and Kathryn for sharing the big picture of you, the strategy, the challenges, and the ambition driving SNG sustainability work. Before we go, last episode, I was left with a question from Princess.

What's the one simple thing that every resident can do to make their homes a little bit more environmentally friendly? Such a great question, Princess, thanks so much. I would say the one thing everyone can do to make it more sustainable, and we actually did this last month in our resident challenge, and it was our carbon reduction challenge.

And we challenged our residents to turn the heating down by one degrees. And I love a warm home. I'm a sucker.

It could be 16 to 20 degrees outside and I still feel cold, so a warm home is super important to me. And I thought, I'm going to hate this challenge, but I have to do it. I'm part of the City of the Embassy, so I can't be telling everyone else to do it and not do it myself.

So I did it. And actually, I didn't feel a huge difference in temperature. And it makes such a difference.

If every UK household turned the thermostat down by just one degrees would save the same amount of CO2 as taking three million cars off the road, that's huge. And I think next month, I'm even going to slowly reduce it down by one more degree. So now I'm on 18.

Who knows, I might get it to 17. I will keep you guys updated. Thank you so much for listening.

And thank you to all our guests today. As mentioned, you can find the links to all topics we've spoken about below. Don't forget, you can get involved, share your ideas and hear about sustainability opportunities through Engage.

And colleagues can join or contribute to the Green Group too. Until next time, take care. And thanks for turning the key with us.

Hello, and welcome back to Turning the Key at SNG. I'm Nichola, one of SNG's customers, and today I'm stepping in as your guest host. It's a real privilege to be here, helping to bring customer and colleagues together in the same room to have open, honest conversations about the things that shape our homes, our communities, and our future.

And today we're building on that theme by exploring something that affects every home, sustainability. Today we'll be having a more hands-on conversation with Dan Moore, an Environmental Specialist, and Pete Bladener, who's an electrician. Two colleagues who live and breed sustainability to explore staff action and customer engagement.

So whether you're listening as a customer, a colleague, or someone curious about how we create warmer, greener, more future-proof homes, you're in the right place. Let's turn the key and get started. Pete, Dan, welcome, and thanks so much for joining us.

For anyone who doesn't know you, could you introduce yourself a little and tell us about your role at SNG?

Yeah, thank you for having us. So my name is Dan Moore. I'm the Environment Specialist at SNG.

So I look after environmental management and touch on some sustainability bits as well.

Fantastic.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm Pete Bladener, electrician. I do electrical testing and then repairs in people's homes.

So I guess I've got a good insight onto the front line of SNG homes. I'm also lucky enough to chair the Green Group, which is what we'll talk about later. But yeah, lucky enough to do that.

Thank you.

Fantastic. So let's start off getting to know you guys a little bit better. When you hear the word sustainability, what is the first thing that comes to mind to you and why?

It's a good question. I think sustainability is misunderstood by a lot of people that use it in terms of the politicians and the media. It was only yesterday that a bunch of big fashion labels had to pull some adverts because of full screen advertising.

So the actual definition that they parcel up is meeting the needs of today without compromising the needs, the ability of future generations to meet their needs. But I think for me, it's about taking stewardship, taking ownership over the planet, not taking more than we need and not being kind of selfish with what we have.

Yeah, for me, I mean, it is a really broad term. And so I try and think about it on an individual level. And so I try and think about how people can be empowered to make decisions that sustain them, but also support the environment around them.

And that could be things like how to recycle, but also how they relax their careers, like how they live their life. And I think it's important. Why I think it's important is for people to feel like they have agency of their lives, and they have some power to change things, and that they can improve their connection to the environment.

Amazing. I think a lot of it is about taking accountability, not just government level organization, but also as individuals, as you touched on. It's so important.

What can we do to change the world? And it's small changes. People don't realize the small little changes that we make, organizations make, that have such huge impacts.

Yeah, it's hard to sometimes think of the global picture where all the headlines you hear of these big factories or...

It's demoralizing.

Yeah, big economies. But actually, day to day, you can make quite a difference to your own life and people around you. And as you said, enjoy nature and feel more connected to the planet.

Yeah, it all adds up. We are a planet of individuals.

Because that can be this very doom and gloom when you think about sustainability and, oh, God, we're all going to die. The world's going to perish. But in reality, you know, there is some amazing technologies and initiatives and things being brought in and I'm trying to see the positive and I think there is a lot of positive.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. OK, Dan, let's start with you. Your role covers environmental management and sustainability.

What does that involve day to day?

So at SNG, we're always trying to protect and preserve the environment. We need to do that by minimising our negative impacts, but also trying to highlight and maximise some of those positive impacts we can have, whether that's renewable technology or recycling. So my role, day to day, we take all of our legal responsibilities, best practice, incorporating what our colleagues think, and what new technologies are out there.

And we come up with the best ways of working and write them into training and guidances and policies and all that fun stuff. And then we do a lot of training, communications, get it out to colleagues, try and help our customers if we can with money-saving tips, especially in the winter when people are using a lot more of their utilities. And then we measure it, we report it through our carbon footprint, and that kind of tells us where our biggest opportunities for improvement are.

I have a few questions. How are we dealing with our carbon footprint compared to other housing associations?

So, our carbon footprint is a massive majority of our carbon footprint is our homes. It makes up over 70% of our total carbon footprint. We tend to, we're sort of middle of the pack, I'd say, between our independent and community-heated homes at the moment.

We've got a good direction, I would say, with our Homes and Place Standard that you spoke to about with Jim and Catherine, and that's going to really highlight the direction for our homes and green spaces. And places that we make. I'd say with the rest of the carbon footprint operationally, it's hard to get accurate data, reliable data every year, particularly with the merger with Network.

And that's where we're trying to kind of realize some of those opportunities around electric vehicles and solar. And how can we sort of make the day to day more environmentally friendly?

I just realized I threw you in the deep end. That's fine, no, no, that's absolutely fine. I just come into my head.

No, it's fine. I have to answer that question like three times a day anyway.

OK, good, good. But yeah, there was a little bit of deflection so that we don't have the comparisons in terms of comparing with other associations.

We have.

Well, the data is, you're saying it's not, it's difficult to compare.

Yeah, it's difficult to compare because we can only compare it through our supplier of our carbon footprint report. So they also deal with about 60 other HAs. So we have a limited pool.

And then it's difficult sometimes because some housing associations report things like shared ownership differently. The information we have around our business and expense mileage doesn't break down into that granular level of sort of petrol, diesel, electric, whatever it might be. So because it's quite a new reporting system, I think the data isn't baselined and benchmarked across the industry to the point where they're always comparable figures.

What we do have is fairly reliable, but it's limited, I'd say.

What's the biggest environmental risk housing associations go for look, and how do we get ahead of it?

There's been a few big risks that have come to the forefront with events like Grenfell and the AWOBS law, and there's some things around, I suppose, asbestos exposure.

So just to clarify, Grenfell Tower was a tower in London that went up in flames. So there's a lot to do with health and safety, cladding, proofing, all that kind of stuff. And AWOBS law, for people who don't know, it came into effect in October, I think that was, and it's surrounding jamper mold and how housing associations and local authorities react to that.

Yeah, so those are the issues that have been in the headlines. They're very prominent at the moment. What we tend to see more from an operational standpoint, a lot of our key risks center around asbestos and hazardous waste.

We're also starting to see more reported cases where we have like bats or nesting birds in loft spaces. We are starting to put in a place where we can be more proactive around that. We can take surveys, speak to our residents, try and gather that information before disturbing the wildlife.

We had an incident with nesting crows where it was in a joint roof space for the bungalows and that work had to be stopped and obviously cost a lot in contractors with scaffolding that had to be taken up and down. But in the end, we would always rather protect the wildlife. So we waited until those nests were clear and carried on with the work.

So that's something that we've learned as a kind of big risk that is being exposed at the moment.

I love that. I love that you put the wildlife first. You're touching my heart.

I have the biggest smile on my face right now. People are listening and they can't see. I learned recently about swift boxes and a type, different types of bricks that you can put into buildings.

Yeah. And the different bricks will have different openings. So different types of birds can go in.

Are we using them in our new builds?

So I'd hope so. I mean, we always love enhancing the bio-diversity and particularly some of the office spaces. We've got like bee hotels.

I think things like those, they're so great. They support the wildlife. We do a lot of planting naturally with our new developments.

So making sure we're planting native, non-invasive species that complement the environment and allow people to kind of relax and move through green spaces rather than a bit of a sort of concrete jungle effect. But yeah, bird boxes, bat boxes, they're all great inclusions and hopefully something that we can start implementing.

Yeah, we've had some questions from customers that come through the green group about people wanting to install different types of swift bricks, boxes, things like that. And basically, there's no policy. So we're trying to, or at least we couldn't find anything specific to that.

So we're kind of doing our best to connect them up to some of the senior leadership. And yes, if we can kind of support people, if it comes directly from our customers, we want to support it if people are kind of passionate about it.

Yeah, I think that's why you really see the power of the green group and SNG employees coming together and seeing little gaps or ideas and just putting them into focus.

And yeah, yeah, we like the green group because it's bottom up rather than top down. It's really people who are passionate about things and can get things done rather than any directive or corporate target or something, so it's nice to have.

Pete, as an electrical technician, what's the most important upgrade homes need today to prepare for a low carbon future?

So an issue that I see a lot, and this is not perhaps what you'd expect because it's not a technical one, is a lack of understanding about new technologies and about the issues that are facing us. So yeah, my experience of going to homes is that lack of understanding and it really is a barrier to sort of adoption of the new technologies and actually to bring people along for the journey, which is going to be a journey because there's going to be a lot of upheaval.

Can you give me some examples of the technologies you've been talking about?

So there's big ones like future trends in electric vehicles. So whether a customer come to us wanting an electric vehicle charge point and how we can support them on that journey. We've got heat pumps, which are a way to heat your house with electricity, which obviously reduces emissions as the grid greens.

Which is very important as gas prices are going up for the next five years. So these kind of changes can make a huge difference to people.

Exactly. It can protect you from spikes in gas prices. So there are big trends like.

But it's also, for me, a really important one is for people to understand how to use the electrical heating systems they have installed right now. If you are using something like an immersion element or a storage heating system, incorrect, it can be really, really expensive. Knock-on effect will be things like emissions, things like that.

But actually, what people will feel is that their electricity bill is going to go right up. So often, when I make a visit, I might be doing an electrical test. Actually, I might sort of just have a look and say, oh, this switch is in the wrong position.

If you kind of want taking through how it works, you'd be amazed at how often people won't really have the basic understanding, not for their own fault. They just have been in sort of tutorialed through it. And actually, a little bit of education can really, really help.

How do you keep that going in the long run? You know, we've got things like smart meters. How do we use our communications for customers and data and actually communicate that in a way that's not grams of carb, kilograms of carb and it's money?

Like, how can we do that?

A lot of people are actually really reluctant to get to new smart meters. Maybe we can touch on that and why.

Yeah, I mean, again, that could be in that Future Trends piece that like as an organization, we could be communicating. I'm lucky enough that I get to speak to people just one on one. So I get to just go in and say, here I am, how can I help?

And then maybe give them some support in other ways. I think it is, but how to communicate to a whole range of customers, that's a tricky one. I've got no answer to that one.

Yeah, I think understanding is a key point. People need to know that some of these technologies are quite invasive and there's definitely a big brother fear around smart meters of what are they watching, how often are they watching, who's watching. But actually a lot of the data that we get is really useful to not only make the homes more efficient, but actually protect our residents.

If we can say to someone, we've noticed that your home is running at 14 degrees, you're risking damp and mold. You should aim to heat your home to 18 degrees, 19 degrees. Those small differences, not only are they preventing damp and mold, they're improving the health of the residents, but then they're also saving SNG.

You know, we might have to send an operative out to deal with that or deal with the damp and mold or do a bathroom repair when actually we could be proactive, get ahead of it with that technology and that data. So the understanding is definitely a key point around that, I think.

Yeah, preventative maintenance and yeah, that's a good sell. Not having to get an engineer around and wait for, you know

Yeah, like video consultations as well. You know, people can explain what's going wrong with a video rather than think that using technology and communications is a key back and forth with residents, I think.

Following question from that, what's an electrical issue you see all the time in homes that residents don't realize actually affects energy efficiency?

Yeah, again, it's actually linked to what I was just talking about. It's something that I've probably like bang on about too much. But, you know, you've got things that you can install to make the home more efficient.

You've got changes you can make to the actual building. But actually, behavioral change can be just as powerful. If you have a immersion element, so a big hot water tank, it seems quite antiquated, but it's still in a lot of homes out there.

You're heating a big tank of water and then making sure that it's insulated and then you use it the next day. If you have your switch on all the time, it heats up all the time, including in the day when electricity is expensive. But if you use it correctly, it should only come on when electricity is cheap.

It's like economy seven, that kind of thing. But your tariff is really important to use that correctly. Otherwise, you're going to be spending so much money to heat your hot water.

So the efficiency comes from heating at the correct time. So it's much cheaper and you can spend that money more wisely.

It's really interesting that you're charged different amounts throughout the day. I think I only realized this about a year ago, and I was like, mind blown. What?

How have they been doing this? So yeah, getting efficient.

Yeah, knowing the tariff and just knowing what's all about.

Getting on the right tariff as well. Sometimes what they do, the energy companies are super cheeky. They give you this really enticing contract, and then you sign it and then after a year, everything goes up.

So yeah, switching, being on top of when you're using your energy.

Yeah, there's a lot that can be done without even banging nails in walls and making dust, in my opinion.

Yeah, we see things like vampire devices where a lot of people leave, you know, don't turn plugs off for like TVs and they've got standby lights. And a lot of devices like Alexa's that you're not using, just turning them off at night can save you sometimes more money than.

Yeah, and it puts people like in the driving seat because they can do those, make these changes themselves.

Do you know at the times of day where you're charged the most?

So off peak time, which is when you want to heat your, charge up your storage heaters and to heat your hot water, it's between 12 and four usually. But it's best to check that the tariffs are different.

And so do they vary? They can.

Economy seven, it used to, maybe I shouldn't say.

Well, just give us your FID. It might not be exactly correct.

Between 12 and four, you're pretty safe. But to be honest, everyone should know their tariff. So just look it up.

It's really easy to see. And then you know, peace of mind, you can set the timer to come on at these times.

I'm going to go home and check my tariff. Is it in the bills or you have to go and look in your actual tariff?

It depends whether you have a gas supply. So if you're electrically heated home, you definitely need to know your tariff. If you have a gas supply as well, it's a little bit less relevant, but you can negotiate for a cheaper tariff at off-peak times.

Okay, so for everyone listening, negotiate your prices down. Watch some sales videos on YouTube before you go on.

Yeah, know your tariff.

That's fantastic. And just to let everyone know, we have plenty of information on our website. I don't think we have anything about the tariffs, but that's probably something we can put on.

But we have loads of other information on the website about how we can create energy efficiency. There's also a lot of stuff on Engage. So guys, check out if you want some more information.

Just to say, we also did some how-to videos two or three years ago now. I'm presented by myself, which are a lot of fun, but they're still on the website. And they are, you know, it's a lot of information that I've said today are on those videos.

So check them out.

Support for you section, I think, and that has a range of services. In case anyone is struggling financially, definitely reach out as well. And ultimately, keeping your home more sustainable benefits you in so many ways.

You know, as you said, saving money, preparing your children, your next generation, to have these homes in good condition. I think there was this mindset, especially with older generation, you have to look after everything you have. You're not sure when you're gonna get new things in.

So it's just really important to treat what you have with importance and responsibility. We're living in an age of obsolescence. We're buying things that break within a year, two years.

I'm convinced that the phone, every time you do an update, it like crashes the system. So how are we tackling this? How are we beating that?

And I think it starts, as we were talking about earlier, with the individual in home. How can we make small changes in our home to make it better as a bigger picture?

Yeah, there's a lot of social innovation around communities as well, bringing people together. We spoke a bit about the knowledge and the understanding, but even using communal spaces differently, moving to models where people rent things rather than own things, and they can be used by multiple people over multiple generations, especially things like bikes would be a good example in our communities.

I'm wondering if that's something SNG can do. They can bring in like recycling centers. I know my local council had something similar where you bring your bikes to this repair shop and you repair it, maybe have some sort of repair section like local community areas, and more can be invested in the community into reusing, recycling, upcycling.

Yeah, definitely.

I think there's loads of opportunities for that, using the organization and the communications to connect people together.

Yeah, I know we've done it in our offices. We've used office furniture and we've donated it to schools and businesses in Africa. And we've kitted out like an IT room in a community hub in Bournemouth with some of our office furniture.

But I think we could really encourage community events as well. You get like the British Heart Foundation doing their furniture recycling.

It's fantastic. I've shopped there.

Yeah, exactly. It's brilliant. And you can get like cuttings for plants and offer them out to people as well.

I think the social community side of it is as important as all the tech, I think.

One thing that happened recently that I'm super proud of, you might be proud of me too, Pete, I fixed my washing machine.

Nice, fair.

Yeah.

Didn't need an electrician.

I didn't, no. And I had someone book to come in and I thought, you know what, let me, because it's very expensive to get a plumber and electrician, depending on what was wrong with the machine. And one of my friends offered me a free washing machine.

They work in removals and they said, look, I got this great washing machine, it's working. And I just didn't like the idea of throwing away such a machine when I think it could be fixed. But the option was there for me to have a free one and it could easily be installed.

So rather than paying someone to come and fix it. And then I sit there for two hours, I was like, I'm going to tackle this with ChatGVT, with YouTube. I managed to fix it.

Half my kitchen floor was fuzzied.

How did you feel afterwards?

I just felt amazing. I felt like this could be my new career path. If anyone's listening, just contact me and I'll come round, I'll do it half price, what everyone else is doing, undercut everyone.

But yeah, but I had the fear in my mind, that's why I booked someone to come and fix it, but I wasn't capable of it. But actually, there's just so many videos and things now that you can really try and fix something and upcycle it.

This example of living sustainably can just make you feel good. It gives you confidence and like, yeah, what can we fix next?

Yeah, I know. That's what I got my screwdriver in one hand, my belt, black belt. I was like, bring it on.

You're both more hands on than me, that would have been. I've been straight to Curry's.

OK, so you guys are both part of the green group. Pete, you are the chair, Dan, you are the vice chair. Can you tell me a little bit about it?

How was it set up? Give me a little an overview.

Yeah, so it started in 2019 by a group of individuals, colleagues within SNG who are passionate about the environment, volunteers who are just trying to make a difference. Yeah, so it's grown from that into a bit of a force for change. It's been quite an effective group at getting things done and contributing to culture change within the organisation.

There's a core group of about 20 of us that meet regularly. And then we have a Viva Engage page, which is like a social media sort of community.

So Viva Engage is for SNG staff to get on to.

Yes, it's like Facebook.

And that's like a online community where you can post when you've done good things and connect with other.

We're all here to learn at the end of the day, so it's a nice community. So yeah, briefly our aims are to develop projects. So we kind of support and develop projects, specific projects and initiatives, things like that.

And we challenge the organization where we feel like it's not meeting the mark. And we're supported in that by the organization, luckily. And it's about culture as well, so growing green culture within the organization.

So I'm really lucky to chair, we're lucky to lead the group. Mark Wash, the CEO, is currently our sponsor, so it's been a really good time to get things through because we've got that connection to the top. And just briefly to add to that, the way I came to the organization, the way I came to the Green Group as an electrician, I could see ways that we could be working better out there in the field.

But I felt kind of powerless to change things. I saw a way that we were installing certain equipment, it could be done a lot better basically, but I didn't know where to go. I was connected up to the Green Group, said this is my idea, I was really encouraged, supported by them.

They connected me up with some senior leaders, we had some meetings and we got policy change. And obviously for me, it felt great, that something that I saw actually changed, and something for the better. And yeah, lost that kind of lonely feeling that you can have sometimes in any role.

Fantastic. What kind of impact have you seen internally, or are there any projects that you're really proud of and that you'd like to share?

We look at a wide variety of things. And then one of the kind of real world things that we did was World Cleanup Day. So a colleague came to us.

She was really passionate about it. She'd done litter picks with her kids before and really enjoyed it. And she said, let's get something going for this.

So we organized litter picks across the whole geography really for World Cleanup Day. And yeah, it was a huge success.

Yeah, I've got an example, too, of underground action. So one of our colleagues went into the tea and coffee stations in our offices and noticed we're still using single use plastics. And actually, you know, we could change that for the better.

So again, they came to the group and we were able to connect them up to the right people. And we got that changed. And now we're not using single use plastics, which is great.

Small thing, but it does make a difference. Currently, we're actually working with Nichola on this as well. It's just us all going into our workspaces and saying, how can we encourage people to recycle?

Where are the bins? Like, where's the food waste? Could we literally just move things over to here?

And actually, how could that improve the amount of recycling that's being done? Make it easy, things like that. So it's just nice because we can all use our perspective to make things better.

So, yes, fun. We have a lot of fun in the green group. They're really interesting, like people of loads of different types of expertise.

So.

So how I joined the green group really was that I, with help of Phoebe and the engagement team and Lorna, we set up sustainability ambassadors and it was resident led. So we asked people to come in and join in. And so far we have eight members.

There are still some spaces. So if people are interested in getting involved, you have passions around sustainability, you have any green initiatives, or even if you just have ideas, definitely get in touch with the engagement team. Go on to the website or go on to Engage.

Engage is a great platform where you can go on, give your feedback about the company. For example, letters and information, and sometimes even get incentives and money, like 20 pound draws, 25 pounds here. I actually got some money, so I was really happy with that.

Yeah, so it's a nice little side hustle. You can get on the forms, filling them in. And on the Engage page, we have a sustainability area.

And what we do and what the Sustainability Ambassadors have started to do was President Challenges. So every month, we're going to have different challenges. And it comes with some facts and some ideas, and then you can share your experience, and then you get entered into a prize draw.

First place gets 25 pounds, and runners up get 20 pounds. So yeah, so you could be winning some money. Bring your green ideas and join in.

Sustainability Investors is really just about bringing green passion and ideas to SNG, the organization, and making change. Also, holding them accountable. Reading through sustainable, the sustainability strategy, yes, reading through, giving your feedback.

Sometimes it just takes one person to mention something, and things can be changed. There's other bigger things we wanted to work on. Coming back to the Swift boxes and houses, et cetera.

I had this idea of creating habitats for declining species. So every time we build a new property, there's a thing called BNG, Biversity Net Gain. And the government says you have to put 10% biodiversity back into the area where you're developing.

And usually what it is, it's just a bit of a tick box and event. So we plant some trees, we do something here. Why don't we plant trees or habitats, create habitats that are specifically for animals in that area that are declining?

So nightingale bird is one of them. And if you look on a map where the SNG houses are, it's kind of starting from all the southwest of England, right up until like Milton Cleans and Kent area. And that's where the nightingale bird populates.

So it migrates here and then it migrates to Africa. And yeah, they're declining massively. 96%, I think, and they're on the brink of extinction.

So making small changes or creating little habitats like that. And yeah, I mean, it's just an idea at the moment. I've put it to, you know, people at the top and they seem really positive about it.

So yeah, watch this space.

Yeah, no, it's great. Hearing that there's people out there taking action and they're really passionate about sustainability, I think it's fantastic. And you mentioned about biodiversity net gain.

I think people sort of thought that was the silver bullet, but actually the challenge would be, can we do nature restoration? Can we do nature recovery? And after we finish building a development, can we almost restore it, nature, to the point where it was before we touched that site, particularly for greenfield sites that have never been touched before?

So I think going above and beyond that and taking into account the protected species that you mentioned is a great idea.

And one thing I really do love about SNG is I feel, as a customer, I feel heard, I feel listened to. And when I've come up with these ideas, sometimes they're a little bit out there or like how we can achieve this, it seems almost impossible. But they're like, OK, let's think about it.

Let's get some ideas. Let's get it written down. Let's have a meeting.

And I feel heard, I feel listened to. And I think customers don't realize the influence and power you can have on the organization because they really are taking the time and they want to know your voice. They want to know your opinion.

They want to know your ideas. So yeah, come forward, guys. Let's band together.

I have a couple of fun questions. So let's get involved. What's the weirdest sustainability challenge that no one expects in housing?

So I don't know about no one expects, but the weirdest thing that I do in my day-to-day job is tell people how to identify backdropings. And that's not something I ever thought I'd be using my degree or qualifications for, but I have to answer that.

Can you explain what they look like? Can you give us a little run through?

I mean, there's sort of, you know, like rat droppings or anything like that, but they're small, really small like rat droppings. Now I'm doing it on a podcast, but the key thing is it crumbles if you touch it.

So you ask people to touch the poop?

Well, we don't actually ask people to touch it, but I mean, that's the test. Do some great hands, the crumble test.

Gestures right now that people can't see.

Yeah, it's the crumble test, and I never thought that would be part of my day-to-day, but that's something I tell people more often than I care to admit.

Okay, so it's kind of like an oblong, like...

Yeah, it's just like a pellet, and then it crumbles, yeah.

A pellet's more round, I think. When you look at mice or rat poo, it's more oblong.

Like that, then, yeah.

Okay. And why would people need to identify the bat feces?

So, the key thing for us is we can't be there watching animals go in and out of the home every minute of every day. So if a resident says to us, I've heard nesting birds or roosting bats, then that's invaluable for us, because we don't have to disturb them. We can just go in, take the survey, work with the ecologist, and not worry about damaging or harming their nests, their roosts, their young, or the animal themselves.

So, yeah, that's interesting. How can I segue from that from bats to the weirdest, I mean, to be honest, rabbits, rabbit holes, and something that I encounter a lot, and something we'll probably all encounter a lot is the rabbit holes you can go down online, or the misinformation you can find about modern topics to do with sustainability. And I have a lot of interesting chats with people who have obviously gone way down the rabbit hole on some issues.

And yeah, I think we should just check our sources, check for misinformation, try and educate ourselves. And most importantly, try and keep local, keep the things that you can really, you can touch and you can make a difference on. Yeah, bit of a weird one, but yeah, I'd have lots of interesting chats out there.

He was talking about going down a rabbit hole and I was like, okay, now I get it.

I was excited to see what electrician problems there are in rabbit holes.

Yeah, pigeons can also be a big issue for housing and areas. How can we balance that with being sustainable towards the pigeons? Because I think they're classed as pests.

Are they classed as pests within SNG's organization or is that a government whole?

So we don't necessarily class them as pests. Birds are very tricky because their nests are protected. However, if they're having a significant adverse impact on the local environment, we've had pigeons where we've got properties with balconies.

It's really impractical for us to put spikes on the balconies because of residents and kids and elderly residents as well. So their droppings have become a problem. We are allowed to control their population with, you know, the unfortunate ways that you can do that.

However, our first port of call would always be to not cause harm to the animals. So we would use things like noises or the silhouettes of hawks you can get to kind of encourage the pigeons to leave by themselves before that.

Do we use netting in our properties? We have done, yeah, we have done. Because I know that a lot of animals get stuck in the nets and it does cause a lot of problems.

Are we slowly trying to come away from that?

Yeah, I would say so. I think also, like with this being a customer podcast as well, is we get a lot of problems with other invasive and pest species, wasps, rats, sometimes in the summer maggots, which isn't particularly glamorous. If there are conditions that are facilitating that, it might be things like piles of waste in the front or the back garden, it might be a really overgrown garden or lots of food waste dotted around the house, particularly where people have birds, they drop seeds and that can encourage that behavior.

So I would say one of the proactive things you can do to get ahead of pests and invasive species is just to monitor things like that. And it really discourages them from kind of taking hold.

Yeah, I did that where I put everything in my house as well as outside my house is in secure bins. So it's not going to cause any pest issues. And it does make a big difference.

What's something in housing that's secretly terrible for the environment, but no one talks about I thought this was a really good question. And I'm quite interested to hear your responses.

Yeah, I think it's not been a secret for years, but transitioning to electric vehicles, particularly in areas like the Isle of Wight, where it's very controlled distance. EVs is something electric vehicles is something that we really want to introduce and move to because our vehicles are a big source of transmissions. And when they're going from suppliers to homes to yards to depots day in day out, it's definitely an area where it hasn't been talked about as much as it should in terms of quick wins.

Hey guys, this has been a really interesting conversation. Let's finish on something positive. What's one thing you'd love every colleague and resident to know about sustainability at SNG?

Yeah, well, I would want people to not forget the great opportunities for grassroots action. Whether you're a colleague, a customer, we work and live in a large and influential housing provider. So if you've got a good idea, your perspective is valuable and unique, and that idea can make a difference.

I felt that with my own experience. We've touched on it a bit already today, but I just think it's worth remembering because we are a large housing provider. It could be scaled up.

It could then influence the sector. It could just keep going and that's like how good ideas take hold. So, yeah, I love that.

Yeah, I think I'd follow on from that. I'd echo it and just say that it's everyone's responsibility to make a difference. It's really hard to do that as an individual or just one house isolated here or there.

Encourage people within your community, challenge people in an effective and educational way, where there are habits and behaviors that can be changed, but it is going to take everyone to make a difference to this. It's nothing that we can do by ourselves.

I agree. And I'm really happy that there are people like you guys at SNG, pushing for these green initiatives and working hard, holding the company to account and ultimately making it a lot better and improving it. So thank you so much for being on the podcast.

It's been amazing. I've learned lots. I've enjoyed our conversations.

Hopefully we'll have you on again.

No, it's a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Yeah, thanks.

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Turning the Key at SNG, the podcast where we bring customers and colleagues together to shine a light on the story shaping our homes, services and communities. If you tuned in for the last two episodes, you'll remember the amazing Nicola, one of our customers, guest hosted two fantastic conversations around sustainability. Today, we're shifting focus, but staying firmly rooted in the heart of SNG's purpose, creating safe, supported places where people can thrive.

We're heading to the Isle of Wight to talk about SNG's Foyer, what it is, how young people can access the service, and where it sits with an SNG-supported housing offer. But beyond the structure of the service, we're looking at the human side. The first impressions, the friendships formed, the support that helps young people steady themselves in uncertain situations.

So I'll be joined by two guests who bring both lived experience and frontline expertise. I'll be speaking with Luis Montague, a resident of the Foyer, about the journey that brought him there, the moment he realized the Foyer could truly help, and the goals that he's working towards now, and his love of fishing. We'll also hear from Nina Kennerdale, one of the Foyer's team leaders, about what draws her to this work, the challenges young people face, and how trauma-informed approaches show up daily inside the service.

Together we'll explore community, misconceptions, hope, and what people might be surprised to learn about the reality of youth homelessness. So what is a foyer? A youth foyer is a type of supported housing that is designed for young people aged roughly between 16 to 30 who can't live at home and may have experienced homelessness.

This model combines safe, affordable accommodation with structured opportunities in education, employment, and personal development, helping young people make a stable transition to adulthood. Today we're focusing on SNG's foyer in Bride on the Isle of Wight. The foyer on the island provides accommodation and support services for up to 45 young people aged 18 to 30.

It also operates severe weather provision, which is utilised by the Isle of Wight Council in hot and cold periods. The accommodation consists of en suite bedsits arranged across nine flats, each with their own kitchen. The building is set over five floors and hosts a fully equipped gym, mezzanine seating, breakout spaces, and meeting rooms.

So that's the bigger picture of what a youth foyer is, and what the ride foyer offers. But the best way to understand its impact is to hear from the people who know it best. So, let's introduce our guests.

Hello, everyone.

Hello.

Can you please introduce yourselves? I'll start with you, Luis.

So, hi, I'm Luis. I'm 21 and I'm a resident of the foyer and also the president.

President resident?

Yeah.

Hi, I'm Nina and I'm a team leader at the foyer. I have been there 23 years.

Cool. That's impressive.

Yeah, I've been there 23 years.

And you haven't got bored yet?

Absolutely not. I love it.

It's got to happen to me.

So Luis, we're going to come over to you first. So before we get into your experience here, I'd love to step back a bit and understand where your journey began. So can you tell me a little bit about what life was like for you before you came to the foyer?

Life was all right. I was living with my mom, a few of my brothers and sisters. I was working.

I was doing pretty well. Then things took a little bit of a turn. Me and my mom had quite a big argument.

That's when I became homeless and that is how I found the foyer.

So how did you first hear about the foyer and what made you decide to explore it as an option?

So my mom mentioned about going to the council to sort out some housing for me. So I went down there and they spoke about the foyer. And I heard some pretty bad stories about it at first.

But when I got there, I realized it was quite good, very relaxed. You know, the people in there, the other residents are really well behaved, nice. All around good atmosphere.

So what sort of things did you hear before you saw it for yourself?

I heard a few names that had a bad reputation for themselves. But once I actually got in there, got to know these people, they weren't what the reputation was.

So you decided to go, and arriving somewhere new can be obviously a massive moment. And I would like to know what that felt like for you. So do you remember your first day arriving, and what stood out to you?

What stood out was the actual size of the place. It's quite big, quite nice, well looked after building.

It's quite modern, isn't it? I've been lucky enough to visit, and it definitely stays with you once you've seen it.

Yeah.

Did connecting with others help you settle in?

Yeah, 100%, 100%, because we were all kind of sort of in the same situation. And I've known a few people in there anyway, from high school or primary school, it was a lot easier to settle in.

So it's nice having some familiar faces.

Oh yeah.

Was there anyone else that arrived at the same time as you?

No, no, I've done my nan that helped to drop my stuff off, no.

Is your nan a big part of your life?

Oh yeah, yeah, she's helped me with almost everything. She's always been there. She helped me out, so I think my mum kicked me out for a little bit.

So yeah.

I can't imagine it's easy to think past the next day.

You're not sure. No, I always think about what I've got to do that day. Every time I wake up, I've got to think about what I'm doing.

I'm going to sort everything out.

Yeah, it's a lot. Sometimes it can take a little while before something clicks and you realize that you're in the right place. Was there a particular moment early on when you're in the foyer that you realize actually this place might really help?

Yeah, definitely. So the staff, they're a big help. They point you in the right direction, trying to keep you on the right track.

That's what really stood out to me.

How did they do that? Like in a practical way? What do they do to help you stay on the right track?

What works?

Well, for me, it was just talking, talking to me to talk about everything that I needed to do, having a plan for my future. And that plan has all come together now.

Yeah. Did you know what you needed to do beforehand?

Not really, not really, but speaking to a lot of the staff, like Nina here, she's been really helpful. She's pointed me in the right direction as well.

Yeah. Sometimes it's so hard, isn't it? Like you leave school and it's like, oh, yeah, go.

I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do for like two years.

Who does? Let alone with anything else additional that you're having to then deal with. So I really sympathise with that.

So what, other than talking, obviously you've mentioned, has been really helpful for you. Was there any other kind of support that you have found helpful since moving in? Like whether it is from the staff to the programmes or the community?

Yeah, there's a lot of services within the Foyer. You've got skills for work. They do all sorts of courses.

We do like a resident meetings as well. So if you are new there, you can get to know everyone.

Is that what you're president of?

Yeah, yeah, that's what, it's kind of what I do. I'm supposed to be hosting some resident meetings and just speaking to all the residents, see what they want to improve from the Foyer and I pass it on to all the higher ups and managers and stuff.

That's quite a nice position to be in. Yeah, you can take it all on board and then go, by the way, you need to do this, this and this. Do you find it's received well when you feed back to the higher ups?

Yeah, not long ago, a lot of the residents, including me, wanted either a pool table or a games machine.

Yeah, nice.

And they ended up getting a proper old school Pac-Man, a Pac-Man machine. Yeah, I think that was really cool.

Did you even know what Pac-Man was? You're so young.

Oh, yeah, of course, yeah.

Classic, I suppose. That's really cool, then. So I suppose it's really lovely actually seeing some of that feedback arrive and be a physical thing.

Yeah, 100%.

Amazing. So as you settled in and you felt a bit more grounded, I imagine that you began to think about what you wanted for your future. So what goals have you set yourself and how are you working towards them?

Staying on top of my rent and really just trying to learn a lot about tenancies and learn a lot about moving out because in school, they just don't really teach you anything like that.

So you mentioned staying on top of your rent is a big goal of yours and stuff. Have you noticed yourself getting better at dealing with that as time has gone on?

Yeah. First time living there, I wasn't really keeping on top of my rent. I was being well badly behaved.

But moving here again, I've been staying on top of everything, I believe.

I love that you look over to Nina and just a bit of a reassurance.

Yeah, that's really sure.

It sounds like a positive step forward though. And to be fair, my partner deals with gas and electric and always has. I ain't got a clue.

And I'm glad that I'm lucky I can rely on him because I have not got an absolute clue on where to even start with that. I can, yeah, I get that. I do get that.

So looking at the bigger picture now, there's been quite a transformation. You can see how far you've come. How do you feel you've changed since moving in to Foyer?

Oh, I think I've changed a lot for the better, really. I did have a little bit of a drug problem at the beginning, but we sorted that out.

Was that with the support of the Foyer? Or was that external services?

It was mostly by myself and a few other staff. They were just telling me, it doesn't really get you anywhere in life, it doesn't help you. A lot of people use drugs for like escape, whatever they got going on.

But I didn't really have anything going on at the time when I was doing that. So I was just doing it for the sake of doing it. But they've sorted me right out and I'm not really doing anything illegal, any bad stuff.

Yeah, is the temptation there? Do you think about it?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, because maybe a few of the residents get up to some things. But yeah, I just try to stay out of it, try to stay out of it.

That's impressive. I think that shows quite a lot of willpower as well. So what's different about your life now compared to when you first arrived?

Good question. A lot of things changed. I think I'm a lot more, I can speak to people a lot more because before I moved in there I was in a shell.

I didn't really speak to anyone since I moved in there. I think I'm a lot more open with everything.

You can see the benefit of talking.

Oh yeah.

Just the kind of like, you know, problem shared is problem halved. I'm a big believer in that. So with everything you've achieved so far, I am sure that there are moments that do stand out to you.

What's something that you're really proud of right now?

Just being here today. Just being here today.

I'll take that. I think, you know, I think it speaks volumes, that you're comfortable enough to, that's one thing living it, it's another thing reflecting on it, talking about it, reliving it. So I respect that massively.

Thank you.

And I think, you know, you never know how many people are helping just from talking as well, especially on a public platform like this.

Yeah, and hopefully this does help a lot of residents of Foyers or just young people that, you know, are in trouble.

You should have a screening of this in the Foyer when it's released. Or have a sofa night, get pizza.

I was going to do it. When Luis did the last film, I was going to do like an Oscar night. And I was going to get a little Oscar and stuff.

Oh, more reason to now.

Yeah, I suppose.

And we've also mentioned that you are the president resident. So congratulations.

Thank you.

So you've spoken a little bit about what that involves. But what made you want to take that on?

Oh, second time moving in there. There was like an election thing going on. And I didn't really know much about what was going on.

But I know I'd really like being a president because I know the building very well, know all the staff, most of the residents. So I thought I'd be perfect for the role in Iran, the president.

Were you elected?

Yeah.

All by votes as well?

Yeah, votes. There were three other people. Cam and Levi, they're good lads.

Cam has moved out now. He's on to big things.

How is it when people move out? What's that like in terms of staying in touch? Do you stay in touch with some people?

Yeah, it depends how good of a relationship I've got with them. So I suppose, I think people just more get on with life once they've moved out of the foyer. They've got everything planned out, they've got everything lined up, how they want it done, and they just do it.

And if that might mean kind of maybe one or two relationships, but it doesn't hurt any feelings, it's all right.

You're all there for your own good at this point, aren't you?

Yeah, yeah.

Also, a little birdie told me that fishing is a big interest of yours.

Yes, fishing forever, since I can remember.

Who taught you?

My dad.

Yeah?

Yeah.

So it's a big part of your life. And what do you enjoy about it?

Well, it's probably just the thrill of actually hooking a fish. We've got a little float that it will go under if the fish, so I took it. Seeing that disappearing and the rod bending, just feeling the weight of the fish.

Nice satisfaction with it.

Yeah, and then actually seeing what fish you've caught once you've got it to the surface, actually having a look at it. It's pretty cool.

It is a very good reason to be living on an island.

Oh yeah.

To be fishing. You must have to travel, what, 15 minutes maximum when you're at a beach.

Oh yeah, just down the road, end of the pier.

You've got your favorite spot.

Oh yeah.

You've got your spot. And have you been helping others with fishing as well?

Yeah, one of the residents, Kai, he knew a little bit about fishing, but he saw me going off fishing one day and he asked me if he could come with. So I took him with, taught him a lot of fishing knots and caught him his first few fish.

Oh, lovely. And he enjoyed it?

Oh yeah, he loved it. After that, we went fishing for quite a while, but I think he's kind of stopped fishing since the weather's been crap.

Oh yeah, we won't talk about our weather.

No.

For anyone listening, we've just had all the flooding, was it, last week? And we weren't sure you'd be making it today, anyway.

We did, we did.

You did make it. That's the commitment over here. I love that.

But I think your story is such a powerful example of what the right support in the right place can do for someone. And I think you speak very eloquently about that and take credit for that, that you should know that within yourself, that you're capable of doing that and doing it in such a good way and that you are then able to pass that on to others and hopefully help them too.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

So Nina, before we dive into the work that you do here, I'd love for listeners to get a sense of who you are and the journey that brought you to the Foyer. So can you tell us a little bit about your career path and what led you to your role as a team leader?

I started my career working in a residential children's home 30 years ago, did that when my daughter was young. And then I did some youth work as well. I met somebody, I can't remember where I was now, but I met somebody that ran a Foyer in Manchester.

Oh, okay.

And they told me that we'd got a Foyer on the island. I hadn't heard of it. It had been open for about 18 months then.

So were you local to ride at this point?

No, I was on the island, but obviously not in ride. And he told me all the ethos and background of what a Foyer did, and it just sounded perfect to me. So about four months later, a job came up.

I saw it in the local paper and I applied for it, and I've been there ever since. So that's 23 years.

That's good going.

Yeah, and I love it.

So what kind of first drew you to working with young people, and specifically into the world of supported accommodation?

I, like I said, I started off in a residential children's setting and really enjoyed that, and did some, what they called satellite work, which was another word for the young people that were coming out of the children's home when they were reaching sort of 15, 16. You work with them in a one-to-one basis in a flat setting. So you were teaching them the independent skills for them to go on and live independently.

And also, you know, I had some friends growing up who were quite vulnerable in their family setting and remembering that and how that felt for them. And I just wanted to put something back. And from the day that I started working there, it's just, I just love working there.

I love going into the foyer. I love the young people that we work with, what we do, what the outcomes are.

The purpose of it all.

Absolutely. And no day is the same. I bet.

Yeah, no day is the same.

So you've got like quite a unique vantage point into the challenges that young people face, especially around housing and stability. From your experience, what are the most prevalent issues that young people are facing today when it comes to housing and homelessness?

I mean, it's changed over the years, but at this specific time, I do think it is affordability. You know, it's very difficult to afford a property if you're on a basic benefit. Also, it's the same if you want to go out to work, and it all comes down to that affordability, and even being accepted for a property on what you're earning, especially the younger, everybody who's living in the same sort of environment should really be getting the same benefits, but they're not.

So the younger residents are getting less than the ones that are 25 and over.

How does that work, then?

Because it's a government, if you're over 25, you're entitled to more money. Right.

Is this in terms of like universal credit?

It is, yes. Yeah. So yeah, affordability is a big issue at the moment.

So that's been a bit of an obstacle, which we are, you know, we're working really, really well with SNG lettings and the local council to get young people accommodated for move on. Again, you've got the affordability of the bills and the housing crisis and everything like that. And I think, you know, there's lots of other obstacles there that young people face.

The exploitation of living in that environment and you're very vulnerable. So the normal things that young people go through, through drugs and alcohol, you know, there's lots of people out there that will prey on a setting like the Foyer and the young people that are in there.

Do you come across that much?

We do, yes, yeah.

Where do you start?

Well, we work closely with the police. We work closely with safeguarding. So we will do referrals if we think people are at risk.

And we try and keep an eye on what's going on. And we will report to the, you know, the right lines. The building is very safe.

We don't have many people coming in there. So I think that's one thing that the residents do feel that they are in a safe environment. But outside is a different matter.

And then it's getting ready to deal with the outside. Like, you know, you might be just about ready to deal with the inside. Then getting outside.

Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of the young people arriving at the Foyer may have had difficult experiences with services or adults in position of authorities. So how do you go about building trust with young people who may not feel safe or confident opening up at first?

I mean, building those relationships is one of the things that we prioritize. You know, creating that trusting relationship and being honest, being consistent, being authentic, following through what you're going to do, being honest with what you can and can't do. And just building on that and waiting for those young people to see that, that they can build that trust and not forcing the issue.

And again, I think, you know, positively challenging, keeping your boundaries safe. Yes. That's, you know, for backgrounds of whatever people come through, I think to be bounded and having that safe environment creates those trusting relationships.

So if someone, so say a new team leader was joining tomorrow, what would your advice be to them?

To, again, your professional boundaries would be number one, to allow those relationships to grow. Again, the consistency, authentic, honest, saying what you mean, and just to follow that through. And we all try to sing from the same sheet.

So, you know, it is an adult-to-adult service. And if we're all putting across the same message, then our residents know that everyone in that team has the same values.

So the other side of that, though, is hearing young people's stories and supporting them through tough times can be so emotionally heavy. How do you personally manage the emotional weight of what you're hearing from day to day?

I mean, we've got such a fantastic team and it's OK at work. We do a lot of supervision. We do a lot of team meetings.

And again, that's a safe place to talk about things and offload. Because some days might just be really difficult for whatever reason. And I think your colleagues pick up on that.

So they will say, right, well, we'll go and deal with this today. You go and sit in the office. And, you know, it's very difficult to have a perfect work-life balance.

But it's really important that we try and do that the best that we can. So it's about how it's again, you might have a day where you do take it home with you, but it's about how you deal with that.

Yeah. And I think, you know, the length of time that you've been at the Foyer speaks to how you manage that emotional way. And obviously, you found a good balancing way to do that.

Absolutely.

It's a credit to you for that.

Thank you.

So the Foyer takes a cycle, bear with me. This is very wordy, wordy one. The Foyer takes a psychologically informed and trauma informed approach, which sounds very straightforward on paper, but in practice, it's very human and very nuanced.

So what does that actually look like day to day for you and your team?

Okay, so again, the priority is about creating a safe environment. I mean, the two concepts, trauma informed and psychologically informed, just complement each other really nicely. And it is about, you know, when a young person comes into the service, it's a non-judgmental approach, looking and understanding at how trauma can affect anybody and how that would look in behaviours and how somebody acts.

And it's about us asking why, looking past the behaviours and asking, I wonder what's happened to this person. Again, it's about them building trusting relationships with each other, with us. And it's about us being their guide, really.

It's about their choices. It's about us collaborating with them, working with them. Very adult-to-adult service.

I like it that you keep saying adult-to-adult, because obviously throughout this, I'm constantly saying young person and youth, and all of this is a bit of a buzzword, but actually, adult-to-adult, just say it as it is.

It's still young people. But if it was parental, then the long-term outcomes and goals wouldn't be the same because they wouldn't be empowered to make their own decisions and choices. And again, what Luis said earlier, it's great to see how the peer support is with each other.

Yeah. And that is what is important.

You do all this work and you're doing everything that you need to do, and then all of a sudden, you must see examples of you guys helping your peers. You reinforce that same message and you're like, oh, I've done my job.

And that's what works. That's what's going to work in the long run. It's about the tone of voice.

It's about how we speak, how our policies are written, what signs we put up in the building, how that tone of voice comes across. But also, it's about the staff resilience, staff training, reflective practice that creates that whole holistic environment.

A question for you, Luis. Have you seen it within your peers or people that may have joined after you've joined, that you can obviously see that they have a perception of adults in their head, and now they're learning this brand new type of adult, let's say, like the support workers and the team leaders that have a completely different approach to what they might be used to. Do you see that play out in front of you sometimes?

Yeah, kind of. A lot of the young people that move in there, they see some of the staff or some of the adults in the building that's just like trying to be your parent or something. And they're not, they're trying to help the residents like, kind of grow up a little bit, just get on with life.

So there's often stereotypes as well attached to young people who need supported accommodation. So are there any common misconceptions about young people in supported accommodation that you wish more people understood?

Yeah, I think a lot of people's perceptions is that the young people are there as a punishment and that it's a negative place to be.

Interesting.

And I encountered that once. We used to do some road shows for the two freshers weeks up at the local college.

Yeah.

And one of the tutors went past and said quite flippantly, Oh, I always threaten my child with the Foyer if they're...

Oh.

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

So I challenged. Yeah, I challenged that and she did come back and apologize.

Good.

And that is not the case. You know, sometimes it's choice that young people are there. Sometimes it's not, you know, more, more often than not, we're seeing that private rents, people, families are losing their private rents or having to go into smaller properties.

But for whatever reason, anyone comes to the Foyer, it's not as a punishment.

What's so interesting. I wasn't expecting you to say anything along those lines.

Yeah.

It makes complete sense, doesn't it?

Yeah.

I think there's like a naivety wrapped around it.

Absolutely. Well, in ignorance as well.

So despite the challenges, there are always these moments that can reinforce why it matters. And what moments or experiences remind you why you do what you do?

Tastes like today.

Oh, look at that. I love this. That's absolutely true.

It's absolutely true.

You deserve to be here.

I hope you know that. And Luis does as well. So there's lots of moments that reinforce why you do it.

Every day, there is something, anything, someone making eye contact for the first time, someone coming in asking, someone coming out of their room, someone joining in with an activity.

How many moments do you have where someone turns around and you're like, yes, pumping the air.

Someone pays the rent, anything. Anything. Honestly, anything can make you feel...

So you know to take the wins.

Absolutely.

What a nice way to look at life, actually, from that perspective. I really like that. So ultimately, the goal is for young people to move on from the Foyer, feeling stronger and more secure.

So in your eyes, what does a positive move on journey look like?

I mean, it differs in everybody. I mean, everybody wants to move out and have their own place and be independent. Some people might build bridges and they go back to their family, which is amazing, you know, and that time that they're in the Foyer is what was needed at that time.

But I think for a move on journey, I mean, in an ideal world, you want people to be happy, you want them to feel confident, you want them to be ready to go out there on their own.

Are there moments where you see someone go and you're like, oh, are they ready? And then they are. Do you often see that?

Do you get to see much afterwards once they go?

Yeah, yeah, because we have a resettlement worker. So the support continues once they go. But we do have people that come back just to pop in or they might need some advice years later.

And it's not so much us thinking, are they ready to go? It's them thinking, because when the realisation hits them, it is a massive step. But most of them, after a week, are like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

So, with demand for supported housing rising nationally, capacity becomes a real issue. Do you feel that the current foyer is big enough to meet the needs of young people on the island?

I personally think there should be another foyer. I don't think the building that we have meets the capacity. I know that from the amount of referrals that we get through or sitting on panels.

I just think ours is quite a nice size. I think any bigger, it might be too big if it was that one building.

It must be a sweet spot.

Yeah. But I do think obviously because of the youth homelessness and that is rising and the housing crisis.

And how does that youth homelessness on the island, how does that differ to, say, mainland?

Well, maybe because of the demographic of the Isle of Wight. You know, it is smaller.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, obviously the demographics in cities and things like that is going to be completely different. We have a lot less opportunities, I think, work wise and for our age group. We were talking about that today, Luis, weren't we?

There's not many opportunities on the island, like job wise or really housing wise.

Yeah.

There is a roof, I suppose, on the island, isn't there? And you can't quite, it's not quite as simple as driving half an hour down the road.

No.

You're in the sea.

Yeah. And it's an expensive channel of water to cross over.

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Anyone that's been to the Isle of Wight Festival would know that, let alone just for a little holiday.

Absolutely.

I did enjoy Black Gang Chine last year.

Yeah.

That's my son liked the dinos.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's wonderful to visit and I can kind of see that way of life because it is different over there, isn't it? But I think the reality is when you're seeing it through rose tinted glasses, because it's a holiday or because it's a nice little visit, you don't get to see the reality of the restrictions that you are kind of left with. Even like deliveries over there as well.

It's slow.

Yeah. Flock Locker doesn't deliver to the Isle of Wight. I don't know why.

How is Amazon? Is Amazon all right?

Amazon is okay. It's not too bad.

Well, we probably shouldn't be talking about that. Sorry listeners. So for anyone that is listening and wondering about how young people actually access the support here, can you tell us what the referral process looks like and how it can be accessed?

So all of our referrals come from the local authority. That's who we're commissioned by. We have a contract with them.

Everything has to go through the Isle of Wight Council. So if there were any young people that were listening to this, who were feeling that they needed to access that, they would contact them and then they would get an assessment and a referral completed, which then when we have our void rooms available, it would come through to us. So it's all through the Isle of Wight Council.

So, Luis and Nina, your stories complement each other so nicely. You know, one showing the lived reality and the other showing the framework that surrounds it. For this next part, I'd love to hear from both of you.

So let's talk about the community that you have built at the foyer and what surprises people and what you wish more people understood about youth homelessness. Nina, I'll come to you first.

So, you mentioned community.

Yes, the community you've built.

And I do feel, again, I can use Luis as an example, of when we have young people moving in, that there's somebody there that will, you know, it's quite scary. It can be very lonely and it's inclusive. And people, they might not want to mix, they might not want to, but it is a respectful, that you respect each other.

We live on a small island, so you might know somebody. And it's about recognizing that everyone's in there for a reason. And that reason is important to them as it is to you.

Yeah. You know, you came down the other day, Luis, didn't you? And mentioned some new young man that was in the gym.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And I said, Oh, go up, you know, say hello, which you did. And it's just about that.

It's just about taking away those barriers.

Does it feel like you're back at school in those moments? So it's like, go say hi.

Yeah, sometimes, but, you know, you've got to make people feel welcome, because, you know, you don't know what situation they've come from. And it's all about making them feel welcome and at home.

What would you say helps young people feel seen, heard and respected?

By being listened to, by having an input, and then, you know, taking what we do to them and making them a part of that. The collaboration that I spoke about earlier and the peer support and them having choices. You know, the choices, you know, that's the big thing, not us saying, this is what we do, this is what we're going to do.

It's like, what would you like to do? How can we do that?

Anything you'd like to add to that?

Yeah, I think it's pretty cool that we do cooking activities as well, because a lot of young people will go into these, into hostels like the Foyer or any other buildings like that. And they can learn to cook. I learned to cook from school and through Foyer as well.

So taught me a lot of new recipes and made a few friends while doing these activities as well.

And obviously, you don't lose it, do you? You need to be cooking, you need to be having balanced dinners and make sure you are looking after yourself instead of ordering kebab every other night. What do you wish others understood about the reality of youth homelessness?

For example, let's say you see someone from school that you've not seen since you left school and you're catching up about what's happened since, and you've got your scenario that you've been in and they've got theirs, which is nothing quite like yours. What would you want them to understand?

I would want them to be able to understand that, you know, the journey that I had, you know, it was it was pretty tough. And I don't want them to like go slating me for it or anything. Just want to be able to have a nice normal conversation with them, no matter what situation I might have been in.

Just want to be able to be able to talk to them, put all different all differences aside and just get on with life.

Yeah, just have that human to human connection.

Yeah.

I think with the youth homelessness again, it's about the realization that it can happen to anybody.

People think they're so far away from it.

Yeah, they do, you know, and it's a difficult journey. And we always say these guys have already been on a journey before they get to us, you know, and they're already quite inspirational to be where they are. And their journey is really important to us too.

But that's that's personal to them.

So we're going to go to closing now. But finally, Nina, what gives you hope about the young people that you work with?

The young people themselves. You know, again, I've just said, I always find that they're all inspirational in their own way, but they just haven't seen that a lot of the time yet. And you've just always got to have hope, you know, because there is it's such a rewarding place.

We do get some, you know, not every outcome is a positive one, but everyone that's been there has had some kind of positive input and received some support that they might take away with them. Yeah, I just always believe there's hope and it's there in the flesh.

It's right over there, look at that, hope embodied.

I don't think there was much hope when I first moved in there, but now I'm getting everything sorted out. I think I'm gonna get through life flying colors.

I mean, if you can deal with what you've already dealt with, I think you can look back to go, yeah, actually, let's make something good out of this life. You only get the one, don't you?

Yeah.

Exactly. Luis, what does the future look like for you now?

Oh, it's looking pretty good. It's looking pretty good. I should have my own place soon.

It's just about finding a steady job at the minute. I've been doing bits of voluntary work as well, helping out the community. I was shoveling sand not long ago just to clear the harbour and the walkway.

I'm just trying to do anything really to keep me on my toes.

To keep you busy. Is there a message that you'd like to share with another young person who might need the Foyer support?

You're not going to be stuck. You might think you're stuck. You might think you're in the lowest of the lows, but you're not.

You've just got to speak to someone, make sure you find the right help, and eventually it will all work out.

Before we finish, I want to highlight that the Foyer is just one part of SNG's wider supported and temporary accommodation offer. SNG provides a range of homes for people who need additional care or support. Everything from shared houses and cluster accommodation to fully self-contained flats.

Support can be 24-hour, occasional or somewhere in between, depending on what each person needs. Most of these offers like the Foyer are a referral-based system from the local authorities. This kind of housing can support a range of people with varying needs, so please do check out the links below to learn more.

So now, if you've been following the series, you'll know that we've had a little tradition running. One guest from each episode has passed on a question to the next person in the series, and Luis, you have the final handover in the series. So for our final episode, I will be sitting down with Mark Washer, CEO of SNG.

So your question is going straight to the top. You've got a good opportunity here and a great platform. So ask anything you like.

What would you want Mark to think about, reflect on, or respond to directly from you?

If you were a resident of one of SNG's supported living properties, what would you want to see improved first and why?

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Turning the Key at SNG. And of course, an even bigger thank you to our guests for joining us and spotlighting the reality of youth homelessness and the services that are available to support. So if you would like to learn more about Luis' story, click the link below to watch his video.

We've also linked our support pages in case anything you've heard today affects you or someone that you know. Please know that you are not alone and that help is available. As always, our Pass a Question on tradition continues.

Luis has left a brilliant question for our next guest and it's a big one, because next time I'll be sitting down with Mark Washer, CEO of SNG for our final episode of the series. A customer interviewing the CEO, why not? So make sure to tune in for the next episode.

You won't want to miss it. I'm Phoebe Newton. Thank you for listening and I'll see you in the next episode.

So, welcome to the final episode of Turning the Key at SNG. Today, we're closing the series with a conversation that we've never done before. A genuine open one-to-one with the person leading the organization, Mark Washer, Chief Executive of SNG.

Mark has been CEO at SNG since 2018, following senior roles in the sector. He brings decades of experience in housing, finance and leadership. But today isn't about job titles or history, it's about the person behind the role.

And should I say, I'm not just hosting this series, I'm also a customer myself. So today, we're really bringing customer feelings to the forefront of this conversation. Everything you're here today has been shaped by what customers have been telling us.

The emotions sitting beneath our experiences, the things we're frustrated by or hopeful for. It's not often a customer gets to sit down with the CEO and talk publicly about what things really feel like. So that's exactly what we're doing today.

Let's get started. Hello, Mark. Hello.

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much.

Thank you for having me. This is all very posh and professional.

Oh, no. It's not behind the scenes. No, well, there we are.

It's not quite the rest is politics.

No, not quite, but that is definitely some inspiration on it. So we're going to jump straight in, if that's all right with you, and talk a little bit about home and what that means. So for a lot of our customers, it can sometimes feel like leaders live very different home lives from the people that are receiving our services, which can create a bit of distance.

So I'd love to start with something that kind of bridges that gap. When you think about home, what does it mean to you beyond the physical space?

Well, I think the physical space is key, to be clear. I think if you think about, I mean, the first thing I think about home is the physical space. And actually, I guess, if I think about home, it kind of means two things, because it means the home that you live in now, but it also, I don't know if others are the same, but if you talk about home, you think about where you grew up and what life was like.

Like growing up and the first home that you, exactly the first home that you had. And look, I mean, to be honest, I don't think that every person working in a housing association can say that they have firsthand experience of living in social housing. I don't have firsthand experience of living in social housing.

I grew up sort of very comfortably in a sleepy town in Sussex, and it was great. But what I guess is important is not that you necessarily have that firsthand experience, but that you, through the work that you do, put yourself in a position where you can empathize with the customers, the tenants that we have, and understand and try to understand and listen and try to understand what that looks and feels like. I mean, certainly, Home Now, which is on the South Coast, means being near the sea.

It means my partner. It means our dogs or dog at the moment, because we lost one. And it is definitely somewhere where you want to close the front door and feel comfortable and safe and comfortable, where you can entertain friends and family and feel, as I say, kind of protected and cocooned in a way from the outside world.

I would say that, I guess, in my 20s living in London, I certainly had some rental experiences that weren't always fantastic. And probably some pretty dodgy private landlords from time to time. But yeah, no, look, I cannot say that I've lived in social housing.

So obviously, you've not lived in social housing, but what brought you into the sector and what kind of keeps you connected to it?

So I was working for one of the big firms of Chartered Accountants in the city. And pretty early on in my 20s took a decision that I didn't want to, if you like, stay in that purely corporate world. And so I was looking at a point after I qualified of moving into other sectors, you know, potentially, if you like, not-for-profits or charities or whatever.

And one of the areas that I looked at was housing. I looked at others. I mean, it's one of those sliding door moments in a way.

So I looked at international development. So they sort of, you know, in that sort of aid agency space, which I was quite interested in at one point. But I had a friend who was working for an association for the term, older listeners might remember, called Circle 33, which is now part of Clarion.

She was an architect, and I was looking to leave Deloitte's, and she said, oh, there's a job going in finance, Circle 33, which I went for and got.

Do you remember the title of the job?

The title of the job was management accountant.

Oh.

So, yeah.

Quite a nice entry level then.

Yeah, yeah, no. It was, and we were based at that point. There's a very, very posh restaurant now called the German Gymnasium at King's Cross.

And that was an old, as it says on the tin, German gymnasium. That was the office that Circle 33 was based in at the time, which was absolutely horrendous. So going from, you know, a fairly smart city office to this very run down place at King's Cross, when King's Cross was not like it is now, was a bit of a wake up call.

And I think when I joined, I mean, you asked why I'm in a sense, why I'm still here and what made me stay. I think I pretty quickly decided that actually housing was one of those things that was so important to people's life chances. And, you know, if I was thinking about being in that sort of space, outside of that purely corporate world, then it was a good place to be.

But what I identified pretty early on was that actually, I don't think housing associations, well, this was in the early 90s, I don't think housing associations were necessarily that well run at the time. And I thought there was a real opportunity to bring, if you like, a sort of a professional kind of corporate view to what was a slightly, I probably shouldn't say this, but a slightly sort of hippie sector at the time. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, sandals and knitted sweaters.

Are we opposed to bringing that back? Maybe keep the corporate side of things.

No, perhaps not. No, exactly, bits of it. But so, you know, it was very different.

It was a very different world. And I thought actually there is a way of bringing some of what I had experienced in that kind of corporate world, some of which is good in terms of, you know, efficiency and effectiveness, all in service ultimately of the customer. And it seemed to me from a very early stage that it wasn't reasonable that actually those organizations were not particularly efficient or effective, because actually all of the money that is coming in is ultimately coming from our customers.

Is there a moment from your early career or even much earlier in life that kind of shaped your approach to the homes that we provide today?

I'm not sure that I would pinpoint a particular moment, but what it does seem to me is sort of blindingly obvious. And I think it's taken the sector perhaps too long to get to this place. You know, it's taken tragedies like Grenfell, or it's taken tragedies like the awful case of Awab Ishaq, to get us to a point where we actually recognize that having a home in social housing isn't something that people should be sort of forever grateful for.

But it's actually a representation of a sort of a basic, pretty basic human right. And therefore, everything that follows from that, in terms of the level of service that our customers should expect, in terms of the quality of the homes that they're living in, should be as good as if they had paid for that home on the open market. So, for example, you know, that takes me to things like being tenure blind.

I mean, it has always seemed to me to be the case that, you know, the notion that we sometimes see of, and I don't think you see this so much now, but I mean, this idea of poor doors where developments, particularly in London, were being built, where you'd have a sort of a shiny block and a shiny entrance for the homeowners and then for people who were renting social, a sort of a nasty little door around the corner. I mean, that is just appallingly awful design and designed to kind of reinforce some of the worst things we hear about social housing, which is about stigma. And that sort of thing, you know, is really, I don't know, just sort offends my kind of moral compass, really.

I guess if I do think of one thing, which is that when I joined, we went out and looked at some SNG homes, and we looked at some void homes, and we went into a home that we thought was pre-repair before it was let to a new customer. And the message was that it wasn't pre-repair, it was post. And I think we thought, actually, this is not where we think that our homes should be.

So at that point, I observed, and I've been observing ever since, if you move into one of our brand new homes, you will give it an eight or nine out of 10, probably. If you move into one of our refurbished 50, 60, 70 year old homes, then you might be giving it a five or a six, if we're lucky. And we have to aspire to all of those homes being at a much higher standard.

Now, that is a long, we might talk more about it, but that is a long journey. That isn't something that you can do overnight. It would be great to be able to wave a magic wand.

Yeah, and suddenly all of those homes were sort of brought up to the standard that we want.

Yeah.

But we've got over 85,000 homes. You know, that has to be seen as a medium to long-term focused investment plan.

So across this podcast series, customers and colleagues have shared very honest reflections about their experiences. And through the customer influence panel, which we abbreviate to SIP, the meetings that you attend, you've heard many of these voices first hand and they don't hold back. Have any customer stories or insights shifted or deepened how you think about customer experience at SNG?

I mean, without a doubt. I guess the one thing that I, one of those examples that I come back to is in relation to a housing ombudsman case where we had a severe maladministration outcome. We don't like severe maladministration outcomes, but actually we have to take the view that we're going to learn from them.

And one of the things that the ombudsman was asking people to do in some cases, asking chief execs to do in some cases, is to go out and meet the customer face to face. And so in this particular case, Nicole, our chief customer officer, and I went to meet a customer in Hampshire. And it was, I mean, I won't go into, it was a pretty grim case of a repair which involved drainage and not clean drainage, not working effectively and essentially sort of bubbling up under the floor.

And this went on for an incredibly long time. I think, you know, you could probably put it in the category of a fairly complex repair that was difficult to diagnose. And I don't think we'd been short in trying to put in the effort to get it solved, but we hadn't solved it until someone went out and put cameras in the drains and worked out that the drains were going uphill.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the drains going uphill is not likely to end in success. And that was a problem that had been caused by the original construction of this home. The point was, I think it was incredibly important to hear from this customer.

And this home was in perfect condition. This customer was clearly incredibly proud of her home and had been incredibly frustrated by the fact that she simply couldn't get the traction that she needed. She couldn't get the solution that she needed.

And I think that that just was incredibly kind of telling in terms of, I get an awful lot of complaints in my inbox. I mean, I get multiple complaints every day direct to my inbox, which is also one way of sort of gauging how we're doing. And it can become quite easy to say, oh, well, it's just another complaint.

So from time to time to get out and speak to customers who have simply been having a really bad experience I think was just kind of very telling. And to be honest, I don't always necessarily sort of find myself 100% behind the housing ombudsman's ways and means of doing things. But I do think that that was sort of a positive experience ultimately in terms of what Nicole and I took away from it, which is that need to kind of listen and respond and react.

Are there any examples that you're particularly proud of where customer voice has directly influenced positive change?

I mean, firstly, they are involved in things like the Home and Play standard. I mean, when we created the Home and Play standard.

I was there. I was with them. There you go.

So, this is not... What we don't want is the... What is now the Customer Influence Panel, those groups of customers that we bring together.

We don't want that simply to be a tick box. We really want it to influence the way that we're doing business. So, the Home and Play standard, just to explain briefly, and I think you've had a session on...

We have, yeah. But the Home and Play standard is essentially the lens through which we look at the quality of our existing homes and the quality of new homes. And we started with a model of what we thought were the key, some of the key elements that we needed.

So, it looks at a range of different things. For example, space standards, light standards, bio-diversity, connectivity to transport and so on and so forth. But actually doing that without the involvement of our customers is missing or would have been missing a sort of a massive dimension.

Well, it's an assumption that we know what they want.

Exactly. And I think there's a lot there that obviously would tick everyone's boxes. But it definitely did, I think, take on a different dimension because it went through that process.

And you were there, I wasn't. But you could say more about that. But I think that that is an example of where using those structures that I've talked about is really going to yield some positive benefits.

And that isn't, as I say, just so that we can point to it and say, oh, look, we've involved customers here. It's because the Home Applacetag is something that's going to be potentially having an impact on our homes and our customers for decades to come. Why wouldn't we want to involve our customers in that?

So the new corporate plan, which will be released later this year, has been shaped partly by resident feedback and the work of groups like the Customer Influence Panel. One thing that is clear with the new plan is that you're having to strike a balance between long-term and short-term goals. So customers often look for improvements that they can feel quickly, which is completely understandable.

But at the same time, SNG has to think about the bigger picture, making sure that our older homes are invested in early rather than fixing problems too late. So how do you balance those immediate expectations with the long-term responsibility for keeping homes safe and sustainable?

We have to do both. We cannot take our eye off the sort of the current challenges that we know we are sometimes experiencing, and our customers experience. So that's about service delivery.

It's about ensuring that we are responding. So I'm really pleased, for example, that recent initiatives have significantly reduced the average time that it takes to do a day-to-day repair, a responsive repair.

I think it's down to, has it been reduced by 11 days?

I think it's been reduced by 11 days from something like 35 days on average to 24.

And that's in the last year, I think?

On average, and that is, yes, exactly, in something like the last 12 months. So that has been about a really concerted focus on that. Ultimately, and this is coming, people will be able to self-serve when it comes to repairs.

That's the here and now. And that, from a customer satisfaction perspective, is one of the biggest areas that we know affects our customer's experience of SNG. But if I think about those homes that I was saying, the homes that were built in the 50s, 60s, 70s, where they are not at the standard that we need them to be, we also have to have that long-term perspective in our existing homes.

I mean, one of the statistics that people might not be aware of is that over the last five years, we have more than doubled our investment in our existing homes from something approaching 150 million to in excess of 310 million pounds annually. It's big money, isn't it? It's huge, but an awful lot of it is about significant investment in the existing homes and taking that long-term view.

And then I think in terms of the corporate plan and that five-year sort of forward look, it's really difficult to overstate the significance that technology is going to have. I mean, if you think back five years, 10 years, and the journey that we've come on from a technology perspective, it's been huge. But I think that that's nothing compared with the pace that we're going to see change.

So, yes, we talk about digitalization, and that is key. I think as an industry, housing has been kind of way behind the pack in terms of digitalization.

Because I've always thought it, but I didn't know if I could say it. So I'm so glad you said it first.

You can say it and you can shout it, Phoebe, because I think it's absolutely true. I think we have done an awful lot. I mean, if I think about the evolution of data and the use of data, the integrity of our data, if I can call it that, and the importance of data in the way that we think about the organization, think about our customers' satisfaction and what that data is telling us is absolutely key.

But if you think forward, what is AI going to have done to SNG in five years time? And that's exciting, but it's also a little bit scary. But we can't bury our head in the sands anymore.

And I think as housing organizations, sitting back and seeing what everyone else is doing, and then sort of jumping in 10 or 15 years later, is not really doing our customers any favors. We absolutely need to be at the forefront of that.

So practically, where do you see this technology and AI actually coming in?

You know, it will go straight to customer service. It will go straight to things like predictive analytics. So we already have sensors in a number of people's homes, but intelligent boilers and so on that are sending us messages and are aware that they're going to break before our customers are aware they're going to break, you know, actually potentially changes the whole relationship that we have with our customers around repairs and so on.

So huge opportunity, very difficult to predict exactly where it's going to land and what it's going to look and feel like.

It's moving so quick. So something that comes up when we're talking with our customers is that some don't always feel particularly connected to SNG and some feel frustrated by their experiences. So I think avoiding that reality wouldn't be fair to people that are listening to this episode.

So I would like to explore a little bit. How do you stay connected to the reality of our customers' day-to-day experiences?

I mean, we've talked about this a bit, I think. I mean, I do get out and meet our customers not as much as I would like if I'm entirely honest. I mean, for example, I periodically spend some time in the contact centers listening to our customers' calls, and that can be incredibly enlightening.

And it's also great to see the professionalism with which our sort of frontline teams in those contact centers are working with our customers, and the level of care and support that they're giving, sometimes to people who are sort of quite, you know, quite distressed. Yeah.

Oh, I've been lucky enough to shadow the contact center, and I've done it a few times, and every time I walk away, everyone should do that. If only there was a way that we could get every member of staff up there to listen, because it just gives you such a wide scope on what's actually going on. And I think, to be honest, contact center colleagues are the unsung heroes, because they have to know nearly every area of the business, know where to direct.

The knowledge that you need to even do that job is insane. So they need more of a shout out, in my opinion. And we've had customers from our customer influence panel also shadow in the contact center.

And I just think we should try and do it more if we can, for sure.

One thing I was a bit disappointed by was that we had a series of customer roadshows that the customer teams held, and really hoped to be able to get out and meet customers through those, but actually just we couldn't make those dates work. But I am, I think, heading out later this month to the Isle of Wight to meet customers. And again, in London as well over the coming weeks.

What do you think is at the heart of customer frustrations right now?

I think, look, I think, I mean, I think, let's be clear. Most of the points where we touch our customers and most of that is around repairs are successful. You know, we do...

You don't hear about the good stuff though, do you?

You don't hear about the good stuff. We do approaching 300,000 repairs a year. If you look at the sort of transaction by transaction, satisfaction levels, they're good.

But they're at something like 80%, but I'm not really focused on the 80%. As you say, we don't hear about them. And in a way, it's right that we don't hear about them because they're fine.

It's the 20% that aren't working well. I think that that is... And I have long said, you know, how does that manifest itself?

It manifests itself if you're a customer by us not being easy to do business with, by people having to chase. You see this in complaints as well. You know, people make a complaint, and it doesn't always get dealt with, you know, as smoothly as it perhaps should have been.

And what does that do? Well, that means that ultimately, you end up in a bit of a cycle where the customer loses confidence and loses trust in us. So ease and trust are absolutely central to those things.

I... And, you know, you might not be surprised by this coming from the background that I do. I think a lot of the solution is pretty boring.

It's data. It's systems and it's process. If we give our people the data, accurate data that they can get their hands on quickly, that they only have to look in one place for, that is a single version of the truth, if we get that right, if we give them the systems to be able to access that information, and if we talk about the contact center, if someone's on a call, being able to access that information quickly and easily, if we have the processes that mean that things aren't falling through the gaps and our customers are not having to chase something where perhaps someone has gone out with the wrong tools or the wrong equipment, and they say, or someone else will be coming back, and that person never turns up, so they have to chase it.

If we get data systems and process right, we will solve an awful lot of those things, and that's where a lot of our focus is. And if I'm honest, I'd want us to be doing that quicker, but sometimes it takes time. And obviously now we have former network, former Sovereign, that we're bringing together.

And in some of the work we're doing now to accelerate the time that it takes to do a basic repair, so the aim is to, rather than us saying, well, you'll have your repair done in about a month, we want to say you'll have your repair done in about a week. A lot of the work that we're doing there, a lot of the investment that we're putting in will also start to streamline those services as well.

So obviously we've kind of naturally moved on to the repairs topic, which is something that we haven't really touched upon in this podcast, but it definitely feels right too. I know you've recently dealt with your own broken boiler, one of those real life moments that we've all had. When you hear customers describe how repairs issues have affected their lives, do you understand their frustration?

Yeah, look, I mean, my own boiler, I mean, our boiler is currently fixed, I think.

You think?

Look, I think back, I'll tell you the experience that we had, which was also a boiler experience about three or four years ago at home, at around this time of year. So it was sort of December right through to February, when we had an aging boiler, and we had to call out someone to come and fix it on multiple occasions. And the one lesson that I've taken from our own experience a few years ago was that we had the same person coming back time after time after time, and they were able to build on what they'd done the last time, their knowledge, they knew what they'd done, they knew that if it hadn't worked, then they needed to do something different.

We still don't always do that in SNG. Do we try to do that? Look, I think it's easier said than done, and I think one of the things that we're clearly looking at in investing in is that workforce scheduling.

So if you like the logistics of where is someone going to do a repair and getting the same person back when they might be 30 miles away doing something else to fix, one of the more complex problems is not always going to be easy. So it's certainly an aspiration and to have different people going in each time, trying to understand the notes that the person who went in before has left them must be intensely frustrating for customers.

We have a lot of conversations with customers. And I heard it last week, we were in one of the Bournemouth estates and we spoke to some customers. And I think there was an issue with a neighbor.

But the thing that struck more than anything was having to repeat it and having to repeat the situation to multiple people. So I think there really is a need and a want from customers to have that familiarity, to have that sense of community as well. Because obviously once upon a time, we were a million different small housing associations, and it was a lot more community based in that sense in terms of knowing people in your area that are coming to your house to fix a broken tap or a boiler or whatever it is.

So I think it's definitely clear that that is wanted by customers, for sure.

No, and I think if you think about, and I talked about workforce scheduling, but if you think about if you have any order these days, I mean, you can, for a delivery at home, you can pretty much to the minute identify when that delivery is going to arrive. Now, if I'm honest, a delivery is an awful lot easier than potentially fixing a complex repair. But that is, you know, that's the level of expectation that our customers have these days, and we need to move that direction.

I think some of the frustration that comes from customers is the gap between what is promised and what is delivered. What do you make of that?

Well, I mean, firstly, I think you're right. And I think that that is, I mean, in a sense, it comes back to what I was talking about, which is ease and trust. And I don't think that any of our colleagues who are making a commitment that X, Y, or Z will happen by ABC date are doing anything other than, you know, committing to something that they think will be delivered.

I think where it falls down is that boring stuff again, though. I think it's data in its systems and its processes. I think that the core problem is giving our colleagues the tools to do the job.

And that's why this investment in technology. And let's be clear. I mean, SNG is in a fortunate position.

A lot of housing associations don't have the funds to invest in transformation programs, don't have the funds to invest in digitalization and so on, don't have the funds to invest in improving their data, improving their management information. You know, we do. And that's great.

And we have to make the most of that, because I think that that is the key thing for me that will change the dial.

So in our last episode, we spoke with Lewis, who lives at the foyer on the Isle of Wight, a service which provides housing and support to young people facing homelessness. Like every guest in the series, he has left a question for the next person in the chair, which this time is you. Just happened to be you, Mr. Washer.

So this is what Lewis has asked.

If you were a resident of one of SNG's supported living properties, what would you want to see improved first and why?

By the way, I listened to that podcast, I thought it was really good, and I thought Lewis was really great. Yeah. I was talking to our...

This is cheating, possibly. Go on. I was talking to our Chief Customer Officer, Nicole Sharp, about this question, because I did get a little heads up as to what this question might be.

And one of the things that she observed, and it will be challenging, and we don't necessarily have the resources to do this, but where we are able to, and it might be something to work towards in some of those supported schemes, is actually having regular round tables that involve the customers, the residents of those schemes, alongside staff from SNG, from different bits of the business, and indeed from outside agencies, really to just hear on a sort of a regular rhythm and a regular sort of heartbeat of, what is it that would make a difference to you as customers? And where we have done that, I think that has led to some really important changes, benefits, making sure that people get the support that they need, which they perhaps didn't know was available. So I think it's an aspiration.

It's not a fully funded aspiration at the moment, but we need to kind of keep thinking about that, and hopefully at some point might be able to roll that out more.

Thank you very much. I hope you're listening, Louis. So Mark, thank you so much for being a part of this and stepping into something completely new, a public open conversation between a customer and the CEO.

And to everyone listening, I really hope this episode and the series has helped you feel seen. I hope you've heard your own frustrations, hopes, questions reflected in what we've spoken about today and that it's given you a bit more clarity, transparency and connection around some of the things that matter most to you. This is our final episode of the series, but I know, but we will be back again in the autumn.

We've had the green light where we're going to put more conversations that put customer voice at the center of SNG's decisions. So if there is a topic you'd like us to explore next time, you can email us at engagement@sng.org.uk. And if you want to get more involved in shaping SNG, whether that's through panels, events, surveys, or simply sharing your experiences, head to engage.sng.org.uk to see all the ways that you can have your say.

Thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of the series. And thank you for continuing to speak up.

We'll see you in autumn.